Researching Laser Surgery Germany

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sailor604
Posts: 5
Joined: Wed Oct 09, 2024 3:28 pm
Facebook Username: christian.mosley

Researching Laser Surgery Germany

Postby sailor604 » Thu Oct 10, 2024 5:58 pm

Hi Everyone,

It’s a privilege to be part of this group, although I wish it were under better circumstances for all of us.

My primary tumour was successfully treated, but I now have lung metastases—13 nodules ranging from 1mm to 9mm.

I’m very interested in pursuing laser surgery in either Germany or the UK. While I’ve found some great posts here, I’m still struggling to pull all the information together, and online searches have been limited.

If anyone has been through this recently and would be willing to share their experience, particularly regarding timelines, costs, and other key details, I would greatly appreciate it!

Thank you!

ps - Happy Thanksgiving weekend to my fellow Canadians

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beach sunrise
Posts: 1142
Joined: Thu Mar 05, 2020 7:14 pm

Re: Researching Laser Surgery Germany

Postby beach sunrise » Thu Oct 10, 2024 11:28 pm

Sorry you have lung nodules. I have been in your shoes.
The Lung Hospital in Germany is something to consider. I contacted Dr. Kern and sent all scans so far and rad readings hoping I would be a candidate for Rolles surgery. Reply from Dr. Kern was a yes he could do it. He is so nice and has skills to get mets in hard places like 2 of mine were.
Cost in 2023 for just surgery (both lungs) was $35,000. A room for almost 3 months at a villa with air conditioning (haha) was $6,000. I think plane ticket (1st class) was around $4,000 round trip. Food I really have no idea, I cooked in my room which had a kitchen. Taxis were expensive!
Zepher has some good advice and things to think about when considering Rolles surgery on my post from Sept "CT Scan" you might want to read.
Good luck and let us know what you decide.
8/19 RC CEA 82.6 T3N0M0
5FU/rad 6 wk
IVC 75g 1 1/2 wks before surgery. Continue 2x a week
Surg 1/20 -margins T4bN1a IIIC G2 MSI- 1/20 LN+ LVI+ PNI-
pre cea 24 post 5.9
FOLFOX
7 rds 6-10 CEA 11.4 No more
CEA
7/20 11.1 8.8
8/20 7.8
9/20 8.8, 9, 8.6
10/20 8.1
11/20 8s
12/20 8s-9s
ADAPT++++ chrono
CEA
10/23/22 26.x
12/23/22 22.x
2023
1/5 17.1
1/20 15.9
3/30 14.9
6/12 13.3
8/1 2.1
Nodule RML SUV 1.3 5mm
Rolles 3 of 4 lung nodules cancer
KRAS
Chem-sens test failed Not enough ca cells to test

sailor604
Posts: 5
Joined: Wed Oct 09, 2024 3:28 pm
Facebook Username: christian.mosley

Re: Researching Laser Surgery Germany

Postby sailor604 » Fri Oct 11, 2024 1:39 pm

beach sunrise wrote:Sorry you have lung nodules. I have been in your shoes.
The Lung Hospital in Germany is something to consider. I contacted Dr. Kern and sent all scans so far and rad readings hoping I would be a candidate for Rolles surgery. Reply from Dr. Kern was a yes he could do it. He is so nice and has skills to get mets in hard places like 2 of mine were.
Cost in 2023 for just surgery (both lungs) was $35,000. A room for almost 3 months at a villa with air conditioning (haha) was $6,000. I think plane ticket (1st class) was around $4,000 round trip. Food I really have no idea, I cooked in my room which had a kitchen. Taxis were expensive!
Zepher has some good advice and things to think about when considering Rolles surgery on my post from Sept "CT Scan" you might want to read.
Good luck and let us know what you decide.



Thank you so much for taking the time to reply to my post and share your experiences—I really appreciate it!

I had a couple of follow-up questions, if you don’t mind:

- How many nodules did you have, and what size range were they?
- Was the procedure invasive, and did you recover quickly?
- I assume the $35k is in USD?

Thanks again!

mozart13
Posts: 170
Joined: Fri Dec 09, 2016 7:38 pm
Location: Toronto

Re: Researching Laser Surgery Germany

Postby mozart13 » Sat Oct 12, 2024 2:47 pm

Many thanks for sharing your journey with us. I love that you are considering things such as laser surgery –I have been told it helps in getting those nodules by directing the laser light accurately.
55 year at the time of diagnosis, male
Diagnosed with T1,T2 N0 M0 rectal cancer
Total neoadjuvant therapy or TNT (chemoradiation followed by systemic chemotherapy)
Negative since Feb. '17
No surgery
Watch&Wait approach 8)
I don’t come much to the forum , so if this is not updated it means I remain negative!
Wish good luck to all!

User avatar
beach sunrise
Posts: 1142
Joined: Thu Mar 05, 2020 7:14 pm

Re: Researching Laser Surgery Germany

Postby beach sunrise » Sat Oct 12, 2024 3:38 pm

I had 4 nodules removed measuring anywhere from 5mm to 7mm. Only 3 were cancer mets, one was a macrophage, M1.
Yes, I forgot the conversion for surgery cost. The surgery was $35,000 euros but in US dollars it converts to a few thousand more USA dollars. It was 17,000 euros per lung. I had 75g IVC administered 12 hrs after surgery then 2 more infusions before released on the 4th day. I believe IVC is why I did so well with no complications. Wait time between the 2 surgeries was 3 weeks. Discharge to fly home after second surgery was 2 or 3 weeks.
It is open surgery, so invasive but you retain your lungs (a big deal to me). Dr. Kern feels for any nodules down to the size of a grain of sand on every inch of your lungs. The sand grain size I have no idea. Didn't think to ask.
There is a German flight booking company called ABC something, can't remember but I posted it on one of my responses here on the forum. The company is much cheaper for flying than American booking businesses. I didn't know about them until I got home and German friends told me about it. That is how they fly to Germany and back. Who knew!
8/19 RC CEA 82.6 T3N0M0
5FU/rad 6 wk
IVC 75g 1 1/2 wks before surgery. Continue 2x a week
Surg 1/20 -margins T4bN1a IIIC G2 MSI- 1/20 LN+ LVI+ PNI-
pre cea 24 post 5.9
FOLFOX
7 rds 6-10 CEA 11.4 No more
CEA
7/20 11.1 8.8
8/20 7.8
9/20 8.8, 9, 8.6
10/20 8.1
11/20 8s
12/20 8s-9s
ADAPT++++ chrono
CEA
10/23/22 26.x
12/23/22 22.x
2023
1/5 17.1
1/20 15.9
3/30 14.9
6/12 13.3
8/1 2.1
Nodule RML SUV 1.3 5mm
Rolles 3 of 4 lung nodules cancer
KRAS
Chem-sens test failed Not enough ca cells to test

Pagola44
Posts: 420
Joined: Mon Jul 03, 2023 7:57 pm

Re: Researching Laser Surgery Germany

Postby Pagola44 » Sun Oct 13, 2024 7:17 pm

What Was your original staging?
29m Male.
DX: CC, Right Hepatic Flexure, 4cm, T3, G2, M0
Stage III3B , Positive lymph nodes: (2/20)
Baseline CEA value: 1.98
LVI and PNI: absent
Surgical margins: clear
No lynch Syndrome or MSI
Primary surgery type: Laparascopic

sailor604
Posts: 5
Joined: Wed Oct 09, 2024 3:28 pm
Facebook Username: christian.mosley

Re: Researching Laser Surgery Germany

Postby sailor604 » Thu Oct 17, 2024 3:32 pm

beach sunrise wrote:I had 4 nodules removed measuring anywhere from 5mm to 7mm. Only 3 were cancer mets, one was a macrophage, M1.
Yes, I forgot the conversion for surgery cost. The surgery was $35,000 euros but in US dollars it converts to a few thousand more USA dollars. It was 17,000 euros per lung. I had 75g IVC administered 12 hrs after surgery then 2 more infusions before released on the 4th day. I believe IVC is why I did so well with no complications. Wait time between the 2 surgeries was 3 weeks. Discharge to fly home after second surgery was 2 or 3 weeks.
It is open surgery, so invasive but you retain your lungs (a big deal to me). Dr. Kern feels for any nodules down to the size of a grain of sand on every inch of your lungs. The sand grain size I have no idea. Didn't think to ask.
There is a German flight booking company called ABC something, can't remember but I posted it on one of my responses here on the forum. The company is much cheaper for flying than American booking businesses. I didn't know about them until I got home and German friends told me about it. That is how they fly to Germany and back. Who knew!


Thanks for the additional details! You've been very helpful.

Did you feel that the 3-week gap between surgeries was adequate for recovery? Why did you choose Germany versus being treated in the USA?

sailor604
Posts: 5
Joined: Wed Oct 09, 2024 3:28 pm
Facebook Username: christian.mosley

Re: Researching Laser Surgery Germany

Postby sailor604 » Thu Oct 17, 2024 3:38 pm

Pagola44 wrote:What Was your original staging?


I was initially diagnosed with Stage II, with a suspicion of Stage III, but the primary tumour couldn’t be located right away.

After a ski accident, a tumour was discovered on my liver and successfully removed. One year later, during a routine scan, the original tumour reappeared and was again successfully removed.

I remained NED for a year, but then nodules started to appear in my lungs. First, there were 2, then 5, then 7, and now 13, all measuring under 1 cm. A lung biopsy confirmed that the largest nodule was metastatic.

My latest scans and PET show only nodules in the lungs.

zephyr
Posts: 395
Joined: Thu Aug 18, 2016 7:31 am

Re: Researching Laser Surgery Germany

Postby zephyr » Thu Oct 17, 2024 7:48 pm

sailor604 wrote: Why did you choose Germany versus being treated in the USA?


The German surgery uses a unique laser procedure developed by a thoracic surgeon at the Coswig hospital and is not available in the USA.
Nov-2009 Early stage CRC, routine colonoscopy
2010-2014 F/U colonoscopies, all clear
Jun-2016 CRC during F/U colonoscopy, surgery, Stage 4, KRAS, MSS
Aug-2016-May-2018 Folfox, 5FU, Folfiri & Avastin
Aug/Sep-2018 YAG laser surgeries (Germany), 11 nodules removed
Nov-2018 clean CT scan
Mar-2019 New lung nodules
Apr-2019 Dec-2020 Xeloda/Avastin, SBRT, cont. Xeloda/Avastin
Mar-2021 Forfiri/Avastin
Mar-2022 Ablation & Thoracotomy
Feb-2023 Folfiri & Avastin
Nov-2023 Xeloda & Avastin

User avatar
beach sunrise
Posts: 1142
Joined: Thu Mar 05, 2020 7:14 pm

Re: Researching Laser Surgery Germany

Postby beach sunrise » Thu Oct 17, 2024 8:11 pm

For me the 3 week gap was good. I sailed through both surgeries, no complications.
Here in the USA 2 consults with lung surgeons. One wanted to use heavy chemo "and see what happens", Uhmmm no I am not an experiment. I said I was going to contact Germany. His reply was "medical tourism is dangerous." My response was "I'm sure other countries tell their patients the same thing." 2nd consult with a different lung surgeon was all about taking out the RML because the met was on a bronchial tube then do heavy chemo. Uhmm no thanks. With laser lung surgery it preserves your lungs. So, it was a good decision that I contacted Germany instead of taking USA SOC treatment here and still have my lungs.
8/19 RC CEA 82.6 T3N0M0
5FU/rad 6 wk
IVC 75g 1 1/2 wks before surgery. Continue 2x a week
Surg 1/20 -margins T4bN1a IIIC G2 MSI- 1/20 LN+ LVI+ PNI-
pre cea 24 post 5.9
FOLFOX
7 rds 6-10 CEA 11.4 No more
CEA
7/20 11.1 8.8
8/20 7.8
9/20 8.8, 9, 8.6
10/20 8.1
11/20 8s
12/20 8s-9s
ADAPT++++ chrono
CEA
10/23/22 26.x
12/23/22 22.x
2023
1/5 17.1
1/20 15.9
3/30 14.9
6/12 13.3
8/1 2.1
Nodule RML SUV 1.3 5mm
Rolles 3 of 4 lung nodules cancer
KRAS
Chem-sens test failed Not enough ca cells to test

sailor604
Posts: 5
Joined: Wed Oct 09, 2024 3:28 pm
Facebook Username: christian.mosley

Re: Researching Laser Surgery Germany

Postby sailor604 » Tue Oct 22, 2024 5:36 pm

beach sunrise wrote:For me the 3 week gap was good. I sailed through both surgeries, no complications.
Here in the USA 2 consults with lung surgeons. One wanted to use heavy chemo "and see what happens", Uhmmm no I am not an experiment. I said I was going to contact Germany. His reply was "medical tourism is dangerous." My response was "I'm sure other countries tell their patients the same thing." 2nd consult with a different lung surgeon was all about taking out the RML because the met was on a bronchial tube then do heavy chemo. Uhmm no thanks. With laser lung surgery it preserves your lungs. So, it was a good decision that I contacted Germany instead of taking USA SOC treatment here and still have my lungs.


I'm glad it went well for you!

It is disappointing that there isn't better support for seeking treatment elsewhere. Canada has a similar approach: " Let's try this and wait and see." They won't consider local control if the tumours are beyond a few.

I've been gathering my research in this document. Your input has been invaluable. https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Dyg ... it?tab=t.0

I plan on contacting the hospital in Germany after my next scan in Nov.

User avatar
beach sunrise
Posts: 1142
Joined: Thu Mar 05, 2020 7:14 pm

Re: Researching Laser Surgery Germany

Postby beach sunrise » Thu Oct 24, 2024 10:19 am

Great! I really hope you are a candidate for Rolles Laser surgery.
Based on the link you posted the contact would be Schorm (sp?) as Drewes is no longer there. Dr. Kern is who I would recommend.
Please keep us up to date.
Good luck, fingers crossed.
8/19 RC CEA 82.6 T3N0M0
5FU/rad 6 wk
IVC 75g 1 1/2 wks before surgery. Continue 2x a week
Surg 1/20 -margins T4bN1a IIIC G2 MSI- 1/20 LN+ LVI+ PNI-
pre cea 24 post 5.9
FOLFOX
7 rds 6-10 CEA 11.4 No more
CEA
7/20 11.1 8.8
8/20 7.8
9/20 8.8, 9, 8.6
10/20 8.1
11/20 8s
12/20 8s-9s
ADAPT++++ chrono
CEA
10/23/22 26.x
12/23/22 22.x
2023
1/5 17.1
1/20 15.9
3/30 14.9
6/12 13.3
8/1 2.1
Nodule RML SUV 1.3 5mm
Rolles 3 of 4 lung nodules cancer
KRAS
Chem-sens test failed Not enough ca cells to test

User avatar
beach sunrise
Posts: 1142
Joined: Thu Mar 05, 2020 7:14 pm

Re: Researching Laser Surgery Germany

Postby beach sunrise » Tue Nov 12, 2024 12:59 pm

Hey Sailor, any updates yet?
8/19 RC CEA 82.6 T3N0M0
5FU/rad 6 wk
IVC 75g 1 1/2 wks before surgery. Continue 2x a week
Surg 1/20 -margins T4bN1a IIIC G2 MSI- 1/20 LN+ LVI+ PNI-
pre cea 24 post 5.9
FOLFOX
7 rds 6-10 CEA 11.4 No more
CEA
7/20 11.1 8.8
8/20 7.8
9/20 8.8, 9, 8.6
10/20 8.1
11/20 8s
12/20 8s-9s
ADAPT++++ chrono
CEA
10/23/22 26.x
12/23/22 22.x
2023
1/5 17.1
1/20 15.9
3/30 14.9
6/12 13.3
8/1 2.1
Nodule RML SUV 1.3 5mm
Rolles 3 of 4 lung nodules cancer
KRAS
Chem-sens test failed Not enough ca cells to test


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