Update on BX Antitoxin - response from Dr. Smith

[vilca11]

Hello all,

I am in difficult situation. I've got a response from Delta Institute to GrouseMan's arguments about the mix of herbs/mechanism of actions or the BX Antitoxin. And only Maia and CrouseMan so far would be able to make sense of it, I could not understand the scientific or pseudo-scientific argument Dr. Smith is making....

But the dilemma is that I find this response somewhat offensive... So, I do not know if I should post it. Besides, it seems like we all made up our minds about the BX. Of course, I am interested in GrouseMan's take on the response, but not at the price of his blood pressure going up, as did mine... So, will act or not act after I get some feedback GrouseMan.

Thanks to all in participating in this topic. Sorry, if I made people tired or confused, feeling bad about it after reading all the comments...
Hugs to all, Vilca

[Maia]

Vilca, don't feel bad, please. I loved your last post describing how you're life has been -I understand from 'where', in life, you come from. Just had not the time today, to answer.
We're kind of neighbours, I'm in Argentina (South America, even southern than your Ecuador. Así que somos hermanos latinamericanos : )). I was guessing you were near, since you're taking Sangre de Dragón -I know about it.
You probably would do better going east, to the yunga, and finding some wise, ancient shaman, with centuries of practical knowledge about herbs (I have absolute respect for them) than spending $17K in this mixture of herbs. Feel free to PM me Dr Smith's response. My blood pressure is quite stable
Enjoy the warm night in the mountains!

[CRguy]

... So, I do not know if I should post it. Besides, it seems like we all made up our minds about the BX.)

BUTT ..... minds can be changed with more information ....... without it they will just stay the same.
Hopefully you will feel comfortable posting the reply and you have simply stated that it is just another view on this topic of discussion.
Some will agree some not, doesn't matter .... it is still OK to keep the discussion going. JMO.

Cheers
CRguy

[vilca11]

May be your right, CR. I will try right now to copy and paste only the factual, without the stuff that seems offensive.... just abstracts of Dr. Smith's writings that might give someone some more ammunition for the argument or acceptance... I replace his critical references to the opinion I sent to him with "....." :

"....thank you for your diligent research into the BX. I think it’s indicative of your overall proactive approach to your condition.

Initially, I would have to say that someone cannot evaluate the BX unless they understood the mechanism of action and the specific nature of the molecule. There are several false assumptions made:

- This is not an immunological therapy
- ....
term “mixture of ingredients” would indicate.......as any reference to specific to plants pertains only to the plants as a source of specific compounds, and has nothing to do with the chemical compounds .....

- .....This has nothing to do with “absorbing a molecule”...... Nor does the molecule “release free radicals”. The BX catalyzes peroxide formation within unsaturated proteins, progressing along the lines of the microbial physiology. This occurs through dehydrogenation of unsaturated proteins that lock up NADH as a transport intermediate. ....... a basic knowledge of fundamental spectroscopic and photochemical principles,......I really don’t feel the need to expend time on this. I would recommend spending some time in the literature understanding the nature of the spectral profile of cell wall deficient organisms in general.

- ....... I would at least expect that someone wanting truth would at least try to understand if we were using primary or secondary compounds. For example, let’s say we were isolating specific rings structures found in the alkaloids, or taking advantage of unique side structures in glycosides. How would he even know what we were doing based on reference to a couple of plants.

.......Assumptions tend to distort any attempt at unbiased review"

Ok, I will honor someone who will be able to make sense out of the above.... in the abstract form (and in non-abstract form pretty much too), sounds like mambo-jumbo to me, a person who has no idea about biochemistry... Delta is a biochemistry firm....

Good luck, Vilca

[CRguy]

without the stuff that seems offensive

I am sorry Vilca, but if you have extracted only parts of the reply that you don't find offensive, it really does not give the rest of us the chance to make our own determinations as to its overall validity.

What you may find offensive, others may find enlightening or at least not offensive, and may give us a deeper understanding of the person offering that opinion.
I am not able to make a valid assessment based upon only part of the information, so prefer not comment further until I have seen all the information. I am able to determine for myself what I deem offensive.

If you are not comfortable posting it in its entirety then you should perhaps just let GrouseMan review it on your behalf .. if he is agreeable ?????

CRguy

[GrouseMan]

Based on what Vilca11 has posted from Dr Smith, I would suggest that he should have provided some actual study information or reference to literature to backup his claims. His quotes still resemble a lot of scientific words strung together. I am a chemist. I will understand any chemistry involved. Tell us what has specifically been extracted from these plants. Show me the chemical structures. Show me the inhibition curves of the compounds against either specific protein structures or, against standard available tumor cell lines. I have done extractions of plants for compounds of anticancer interest. I have a patent on a series of semi synthetic compounds derived from a plant for use as an anticancer compound which is a topoisomerase II inhibitor. Unfortunately not superior to other existing ones at the time it turned out.

And yes assumptions can make an ass out of people. But in this case I guess I should have dug deeper and gone directly to the source myself rather than just follow the comments of others that posted what they read on a Web Site for this treatment. I still don't like the presumed chemistry from Dr Smiths response about there being dehydrogenation of unsaturated proteins that lock up NADPH used in transport. NADPH is a means of transporting energy around in cells. It's heavily involved in Krebs cycle for instance. But dehydration of an unsaturated chemical entity makes it even further unsaturated. Alkenes to Alkynes for example.

I am also somewhat familiar with superoxide desmutase involved withreactive oxygen species in cells. These are natural signaling and catalytic processes in cells. A lot of research has been done concerning this, and if control via drugs could be detrimental or advantageous to the treatment of several diseases. I think the jury is still out on that one. .

The only statement made that seems at all reasonable was the isolation of specific ring structures.....I would know something about that because the constituents of those plants are somewhat known, at least with regards to their major chemical make up. Most plants of medicinal interest have been well characterized, as Western medicine looked for new drug candidates. If one was found albeit in very small quantities that had substantial anticancer activity, I would have expected that a paper be written, and a reference made on the Web Site about it, rather than just list some plants. Likely they may have even modified the chemical structures. Again that is fine. I've nothing against that. A patent would protect the work. It could be disclosed and others research it as well. In fact I did supply a reference to one such paper myself were the chemical constitutes of one of the plants were well described.

I am going to leave it at this. I have little interest in anticancer treatments shrouded in mystery. So it's not likely I will take up further research into this treatment. If others wish to do so and want to bounce questions off me, that's fine, but please bring references to the table, rather than just some nonsense text off a news article or Web site advertising treatments. I can read and grasp the implications of a lot a science disciplines. I for one didn't stop learning once I got a degree.

And Vilca11. Don't worry - I don't take offense over this sort of stuff. Opinions of people not willing to educate us dumb folk seeking answers do not matter in my book. If they are not willing to take the time to make it understandable, then why should their opinion matter to me. I have met and worked with some very brilliant people, and you know what? They make the time and effort to make their work understood. They will explain it, and if they don't have the answer no mater how smart they are, they won't rationalize it, but give it to you straight that they just don't know!

GrouseMan

[vilca11]

Thanks much, GrouseMan, for the time you spent on this subject. Since Delta has patent still pending and did not publish the papers yet, our only option is to wait on BX Antitoxin, IF this thing is for real at all...

Hugs, vilca