Interesting paper about fasting and vitamin C

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Atoq
Posts: 384
Joined: Wed Oct 25, 2017 9:31 am

Interesting paper about fasting and vitamin C

Postby Atoq » Thu May 28, 2020 2:57 am

Hi,
I just read this article about KRAS mutated CR tumours and I thought it might be

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-020-16243-3

All the best

Claudia
1972, 2 kids
Dx rectal cancer 10.2017
T3N2aMX (suspect met left lung 8 mm)
Lynch neg
CEA 1.8
Neoadjuvant chemoradio Xeloda + 25x2 Gy
05.12.17 laparotomic surgery for blockage, colostomy
25.01.18 laparotomic lar, hysterectomy, ileostomy
05.03.18 core needle lung biopsy , stage IV
07.05.18 CAT scan, lung met 11 mm
04.06.18 ileo reversal
26.06.18 wedge VATS
24.08.18, 31.02.19 CAT scan
12.09.18, 06.02.19 scope, CEA 1.6
19.11.18 colonscopy
20.08.19 CAT, eco
13.09.19 scope, CEA 1.2
18.03.20 CAT, eco, scope, NED

Claudine
Posts: 410
Joined: Tue Mar 12, 2019 2:41 pm
Location: Montana

Re: Interesting paper about fasting and vitamin C

Postby Claudine » Thu May 28, 2020 9:07 am

Very interesting indeed, thank you for sharing!
Wife of Dx 04/18 (51 yo). MSS, KRAS G12A
No primary (involuted?)
Lytic tumor L4 vertebrae, EBRT 04/18, SBRT 02/19
Resect small intestine 05/18 (no cancer - Crohn's)
Failed adjuvant Xelox
Folfiri + Avastin 03/19 to 01/20
6.7 cm left adrenal mass 03/19, successful resection 02/20
CEA since 03/19: high 58, low 3.2, now 24.1
Scan 03/19: Multiple small lung nodules up to 5mm
Scan 12/19: one 1mm stable nodule
PET 04/20 uptake by L4
L3-L4-L5 fusion surgery and residual tumor removal 05/20

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beach sunrise
Posts: 225
Joined: Thu Mar 05, 2020 7:14 pm

Re: Interesting paper about fasting and vitamin C

Postby beach sunrise » Thu May 28, 2020 11:03 am

Thank you for finding and posting this! I will read it later.
8/19 RC CEA 86 T3N0M0
Neoadj 5FU/rad 6 wk
Surg 1-21-20 APR - margins T4bN1a IIIC G2 MSI- 1/20 LN+ LVI+ PNI-
pre cea 24/post 5.9
mFOLFOX6 CEA 7
8 rds 6-10 CEA 11.4 4 more no oxa
6-17 CEA 11.1
7-2 CEA 11.1
7-16 CEA 10.3
7-28 CEA 8.8
8-11 CEA 7.8
9-1 CEA 8.8
9-8 CEA 9
9-16 CEA 9
9-22 CEA 8.6
9-28 CEA 8.5
MHL1+
PMS2+
MSH2+
MSH6+
POLD1
Chem-sens test NCI "Test failed, neo adj CR worked. Not enough ca cells to test"

rp1954
Posts: 1536
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2011 1:13 am

Re: Interesting paper about fasting and vitamin C

Postby rp1954 » Tue Jun 02, 2020 12:21 am

Low carb "FMD" diet + exercise + various chemo (oral 5FU, celecoxib, early CA199-cimetidine, aspirin at different times) + selected neutraceuticals and megavitamins appeared to work best together in my wife's case.

There were clear incidents where dose reduction or loss of components, including IV vitamin C, that disturbed markers and panels for extended periods of time.

A special set of advanced labwork with her living cancer cells showed that 5FU + ascorbate(C) + MK4(special K2) was her favored chemo. Later incidents with both C and MK4, separately, showed bad things happen with different cancer markers, that took up to a year and more chemistry to beat down again.
watchful, active researcher and caregiver for stage IVb/c CC. surgeries 4/10 sigmoid etc & 5/11 para-aortic LN cluster; 8 yrs immuno-Chemo for mCRC; now no chemo
most of 2010 Life Extension recommendations and possibilities + more, some (much) higher, peaking ~2011-12, taper to almost nothing mid 2018, mostly IV C

I_will_fight
Posts: 36
Joined: Mon Jun 29, 2020 3:38 pm

Re: Interesting paper about fasting and vitamin C

Postby I_will_fight » Fri Jul 03, 2020 12:33 pm

Does this work for BRAS normal (e.g. non-mutated) cells?

I read somewhere that fasting helps "normal" cells protect themselves during chemotherapy.

As a generarl rule is fasting recommended? If so, how do you do Short Term Starvation? 48hrs no food just before chemo?

Thank you

JC
46 yo male at DX from Spain
June 2020 - 6 cm T3N0M0 cancer on left colon
No evidence of liver mets, two milimetric dots in lung, 3 and 4 mm (currently not considered mets)
lymph nodes 0/37
MSH6 non expressed, other MMR proteins present
KRAS mt G13D
Vascular invasion: absent
LNI: absent
PNI: present
July 8th 2020 - 50 cm colon and spleen removed, clean margins, optimistic surgeon.
Aug 2020 - start of XELOX regime, four cycles.

zephyr
Posts: 293
Joined: Thu Aug 18, 2016 7:31 am

Re: Interesting paper about fasting and vitamin C

Postby zephyr » Fri Jul 03, 2020 2:48 pm

I_will_fight wrote:I read somewhere that fasting helps "normal" cells protect themselves during chemotherapy.

As a generarl rule is fasting recommended? If so, how do you do Short Term Starvation? 48hrs no food just before chemo?


As I was taught by a naturopathic oncologist who is on my medical team that you don't need to do a complete fast, only a calorie restricted one. As long as you limit yourself to 500 calories per day, you'll get all the benefits of a fast. You start 48 hours before chemo to put your normal cells into a kind of famine mode where they start to shut down to protect you. Since cancer cells don't have that regulating mechanism, they just continue to get hungrier and hungrier so that when the chemo hits your system, your normal cells aren't so hungry but the cancer cells rush to the buffet table. When I was on Folfiri, fasting made a HUGE difference reducing the severity of my side effects. BIG time. But here's the thing: you need to continue to fast through chemo and 24 hours afterwards to get the full effect. For me, that meant "fasting" every other week: 2 days before chemo, 3 days of chemo, and 1 full day afterwards. The first couple of times are challenging while you figure out what you can eat but once you get the hang of it, it's not bad. I actually started to look forward to it because of how much better it made me feel. You can get a surprising number of calories if you stick to foods that are good for you.

If you try fasting, break the fast slowly or your GI system will scream. Think soft foods, easily digestible foods: broths, sweet potato and avocado mash with a little coconut oil, etc.

Hope this help answer your questions.
Nov-2009 Early stage CRC found during routine colonoscopy
2010, 2011, 2014 Follow up colonoscopies, all clear
Jun-2016 CRC found during routine follow up colonoscopy, surgery, Stage 4, KRAS, MSS, inoperable lung mets
Aug-2016-May-2018 Folfox, 5FU & Avastin, 5FU, Folfiri & Cyramza
Aug/Sep-2018 YAG laser surgeries (Germany) on both lungs, 11 nodules (9 mets) removed
Nov-2018 clean CT scan
Mar-2019 New lung nodules
Apr/Jul-2019 Xeloda/Avastin, SBRT
June-2020 Mild progression, continue Xeloda/Avastin

I_will_fight
Posts: 36
Joined: Mon Jun 29, 2020 3:38 pm

Re: Interesting paper about fasting and vitamin C

Postby I_will_fight » Mon Jul 06, 2020 12:45 pm

zephyr wrote:You start 48 hours before chemo to put your normal cells into a kind of famine mode where they start to shut down to protect you. Since cancer cells don't have that regulating mechanism, they just continue to get hungrier and hungrier so that when the chemo hits your system, your normal cells aren't so hungry but the cancer cells rush to the buffet table. When I was on Folfiri, fasting made a HUGE difference reducing the severity of my side effects.

I actually started to look forward to it because of how much better it made me feel. You can get a surprising number of calories if you stick to foods that are good for you.

If you try fasting, break the fast slowly or your GI system will scream. Think soft foods, easily digestible foods: broths, sweet potato and avocado mash with a little coconut oil, etc.

Hope this help answer your questions.


Thanks for your answer, definitely helpful... you have whetted my appetite for fasting (pun intended)

Couple of questions though: Your CRC had KRAS mutation, hadn't it? I have read this makes a difference regarding how cancer cells react to fasting, if they don´t have Kras mutation fasting might protect them.

Second question: did your oncologies recommend or opossed the use of Vitamin C?... according to the article in this thread this might be helpful. So I am hoping someone who has used it can tell us more :)

Thanks again @zephyr
46 yo male at DX from Spain
June 2020 - 6 cm T3N0M0 cancer on left colon
No evidence of liver mets, two milimetric dots in lung, 3 and 4 mm (currently not considered mets)
lymph nodes 0/37
MSH6 non expressed, other MMR proteins present
KRAS mt G13D
Vascular invasion: absent
LNI: absent
PNI: present
July 8th 2020 - 50 cm colon and spleen removed, clean margins, optimistic surgeon.
Aug 2020 - start of XELOX regime, four cycles.

I_will_fight
Posts: 36
Joined: Mon Jun 29, 2020 3:38 pm

Re: Interesting paper about fasting and vitamin C

Postby I_will_fight » Mon Jul 06, 2020 12:47 pm

Atoq wrote:Hi,
I just read this article about KRAS mutated CR tumours and I thought it might be

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-020-16243-3

All the best

Claudia


Thanks for sharing.
46 yo male at DX from Spain
June 2020 - 6 cm T3N0M0 cancer on left colon
No evidence of liver mets, two milimetric dots in lung, 3 and 4 mm (currently not considered mets)
lymph nodes 0/37
MSH6 non expressed, other MMR proteins present
KRAS mt G13D
Vascular invasion: absent
LNI: absent
PNI: present
July 8th 2020 - 50 cm colon and spleen removed, clean margins, optimistic surgeon.
Aug 2020 - start of XELOX regime, four cycles.

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beach sunrise
Posts: 225
Joined: Thu Mar 05, 2020 7:14 pm

Re: Interesting paper about fasting and vitamin C

Postby beach sunrise » Mon Jul 06, 2020 1:22 pm

Hi I Will Fight, I take IV C every week. It helps me feel better. I had two infusions before surgery then after surgery to help with wound healing and immune building. It was a lifesaver with getting me back on track without any after surgery complications. So, I still continue it once a week at 75 grams.
I cannot comment on fasting except to say I scheduled all my infusions early in the morning when center opens and usually didn't have time to eat before :)
To add as rp commented, I also try keep the carbs low low low and walk the dogs every day around the pasture (1/2 mile x2)
8/19 RC CEA 86 T3N0M0
Neoadj 5FU/rad 6 wk
Surg 1-21-20 APR - margins T4bN1a IIIC G2 MSI- 1/20 LN+ LVI+ PNI-
pre cea 24/post 5.9
mFOLFOX6 CEA 7
8 rds 6-10 CEA 11.4 4 more no oxa
6-17 CEA 11.1
7-2 CEA 11.1
7-16 CEA 10.3
7-28 CEA 8.8
8-11 CEA 7.8
9-1 CEA 8.8
9-8 CEA 9
9-16 CEA 9
9-22 CEA 8.6
9-28 CEA 8.5
MHL1+
PMS2+
MSH2+
MSH6+
POLD1
Chem-sens test NCI "Test failed, neo adj CR worked. Not enough ca cells to test"

zephyr
Posts: 293
Joined: Thu Aug 18, 2016 7:31 am

Re: Interesting paper about fasting and vitamin C

Postby zephyr » Mon Jul 06, 2020 2:21 pm

I_will_fight wrote:
Couple of questions though: Your CRC had KRAS mutation, hadn't it? I have read this makes a difference regarding how cancer cells react to fasting, if they don´t have Kras mutation fasting might protect them.

Second question: did your oncologies recommend or opossed the use of Vitamin C?... according to the article in this thread this might be helpful. So I am hoping someone who has used it can tell us more :)



Yes, I have KRAS but I'm sorry that I can't answer your question about fasting and non-KRAS mutated cancer cells. I'm not a doctor or scientist or anything even remotely similar but somehow the idea that fasting would protect non-KRAS cancer cells doesn't sound right. Even though there's no KRAS, the cancer cells are still multiplying like crazy and starving. You might check pubmed for more info or talk to a naturopathic oncologist certified in oncology.

Also a yes about Vitamin C being recommended by my naturopathic oncologist (and approved by my MD oncologists). The naturopathic practice I'm using is very well respected in our oncology community so I never had any pushback about their recommendations.

If you have questions, feel free to PM me. Hope this helps.
Nov-2009 Early stage CRC found during routine colonoscopy
2010, 2011, 2014 Follow up colonoscopies, all clear
Jun-2016 CRC found during routine follow up colonoscopy, surgery, Stage 4, KRAS, MSS, inoperable lung mets
Aug-2016-May-2018 Folfox, 5FU & Avastin, 5FU, Folfiri & Cyramza
Aug/Sep-2018 YAG laser surgeries (Germany) on both lungs, 11 nodules (9 mets) removed
Nov-2018 clean CT scan
Mar-2019 New lung nodules
Apr/Jul-2019 Xeloda/Avastin, SBRT
June-2020 Mild progression, continue Xeloda/Avastin

User avatar
beach sunrise
Posts: 225
Joined: Thu Mar 05, 2020 7:14 pm

Re: Interesting paper about fasting and vitamin C

Postby beach sunrise » Mon Jul 06, 2020 2:40 pm

Hi zephyr, Are you in the US? If so, can you tell me who your naturopathic is? I am lining up consults. Thanks!
8/19 RC CEA 86 T3N0M0
Neoadj 5FU/rad 6 wk
Surg 1-21-20 APR - margins T4bN1a IIIC G2 MSI- 1/20 LN+ LVI+ PNI-
pre cea 24/post 5.9
mFOLFOX6 CEA 7
8 rds 6-10 CEA 11.4 4 more no oxa
6-17 CEA 11.1
7-2 CEA 11.1
7-16 CEA 10.3
7-28 CEA 8.8
8-11 CEA 7.8
9-1 CEA 8.8
9-8 CEA 9
9-16 CEA 9
9-22 CEA 8.6
9-28 CEA 8.5
MHL1+
PMS2+
MSH2+
MSH6+
POLD1
Chem-sens test NCI "Test failed, neo adj CR worked. Not enough ca cells to test"

zephyr
Posts: 293
Joined: Thu Aug 18, 2016 7:31 am

Re: Interesting paper about fasting and vitamin C

Postby zephyr » Mon Jul 06, 2020 6:05 pm

zephyr wrote:
beach sunrise wrote:Hi zephyr, Are you in the US? If so, can you tell me who your naturopathic is? I am lining up consults. Thanks!


https://www.listenandcare.com/our-doctors-and-staff
Nov-2009 Early stage CRC found during routine colonoscopy
2010, 2011, 2014 Follow up colonoscopies, all clear
Jun-2016 CRC found during routine follow up colonoscopy, surgery, Stage 4, KRAS, MSS, inoperable lung mets
Aug-2016-May-2018 Folfox, 5FU & Avastin, 5FU, Folfiri & Cyramza
Aug/Sep-2018 YAG laser surgeries (Germany) on both lungs, 11 nodules (9 mets) removed
Nov-2018 clean CT scan
Mar-2019 New lung nodules
Apr/Jul-2019 Xeloda/Avastin, SBRT
June-2020 Mild progression, continue Xeloda/Avastin

User avatar
beach sunrise
Posts: 225
Joined: Thu Mar 05, 2020 7:14 pm

Re: Interesting paper about fasting and vitamin C

Postby beach sunrise » Mon Jul 06, 2020 10:05 pm

Thank you so much!
8/19 RC CEA 86 T3N0M0
Neoadj 5FU/rad 6 wk
Surg 1-21-20 APR - margins T4bN1a IIIC G2 MSI- 1/20 LN+ LVI+ PNI-
pre cea 24/post 5.9
mFOLFOX6 CEA 7
8 rds 6-10 CEA 11.4 4 more no oxa
6-17 CEA 11.1
7-2 CEA 11.1
7-16 CEA 10.3
7-28 CEA 8.8
8-11 CEA 7.8
9-1 CEA 8.8
9-8 CEA 9
9-16 CEA 9
9-22 CEA 8.6
9-28 CEA 8.5
MHL1+
PMS2+
MSH2+
MSH6+
POLD1
Chem-sens test NCI "Test failed, neo adj CR worked. Not enough ca cells to test"

I_will_fight
Posts: 36
Joined: Mon Jun 29, 2020 3:38 pm

Re: Interesting paper about fasting and vitamin C

Postby I_will_fight » Wed Jul 15, 2020 5:09 pm

zephyr wrote:
If you have questions, feel free to PM me. Hope this helps.


Thanks a lot zephyr, I will take your kind offer and ask you/pm you once I know more about my specific cancer mutations.

JC
46 yo male at DX from Spain
June 2020 - 6 cm T3N0M0 cancer on left colon
No evidence of liver mets, two milimetric dots in lung, 3 and 4 mm (currently not considered mets)
lymph nodes 0/37
MSH6 non expressed, other MMR proteins present
KRAS mt G13D
Vascular invasion: absent
LNI: absent
PNI: present
July 8th 2020 - 50 cm colon and spleen removed, clean margins, optimistic surgeon.
Aug 2020 - start of XELOX regime, four cycles.

User avatar
ginabeewell
Posts: 454
Joined: Wed Oct 24, 2018 10:30 am

Re: Interesting paper about fasting and vitamin C

Postby ginabeewell » Wed Jul 15, 2020 7:11 pm

I tried fasting this cycle, but only did 24 hours in advance because 48 would have included the 4th of July.

I saw no benefit. Do you think worth trying 48 hours? I’m losing weight, so I’m hesitant. But it feels like if I could get the diarrhea to stop, maybe I would have a better chance of eating more sooner post chemo. Right now I’m on day 10 and still can only eat a few bites at a time.

I’m on FOLFIRI + Vectibix.
45 YO mom of twins (9) and lucky stepmom of 14/17 year olds
9/17/18 DX stage 4 CRC w inoperable liver mets CEA 931
10/18 FOLFOX + Vectibix
12/18 typhlitis (7 days in hospital) but largest met down to 5 cm.
12/18 CEA 4.6
1/18 Resume chemo (#6-8)
3/19 HAI pump placement / colon resection
4/19 Resume chemo (#9-19) FOLFOX (no OX) + Vectibix
5/19 CEA 1.3
7/19 liver resection
10/19 liver resection
1/20 NED! CEA 0.6
3/20 two new liver mets; FOLFIRI (5) and then add Vectibix (5)
8/20 CEA 0.7
Resection next?


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