High Dose Vitamin C Questions

[dhamptonii]

This is my first post to Colon Talk. My wife was diagnosed, just before Christmas 2018, with stage IV colon cancer on her left side. My wife has a couple mets in her liver. We reside in Utah and have started chemo (folfox) but have already reached out to Dr. Kemeny in NYC. We also understand that Dr. Fakih at City of Hope is doing an HAI pump trial (anyone familiar with this doctor?). As we currently understand her cancer genetics she is KRAS and BRAF wild.

I have a question about high dose Vitamin C infusions (HDVC): I have searched the forum but there isn’t much discussed recently (that I found). I read a couple things by rp1954 and Maia posted in 2015. Do people have thoughts on this, experience with it, research or can you point me to forum posts? I have read a number of studies on this and most seem to point to positive benefits. The only negative was actually found on cancer.org’s website. [https://www.cancer.gov/about-cancer/treatment/cam/patient/vitamin-c-pdq]


It says:
“Patients with refractory metastatic colorectal cancer or metastatic melanoma were treated with IV vitamin C combined with other drugs. The treatment had no anticancer effect, the tumor continued to grow during treatment, and patients had serious side effects. These studies did not have a comparison group, so it is unclear how much the IV vitamin C affected the side effects.”

My wife suffers from nausea, GI issues, and severe fatigue which we assume are chemo related. I’ve heard that HDVC can potentially help to eliminate those side-effects. 
Beyond that, some studies want to attribute anti-cancer properties which would be a bonus.


We raised the idea to her oncologist and got push back. He stated the vitamin C protects the cancer cell. I’ve read about that idea but it seems the high dose nature of the infusion might act differently than a low dose vitamin C? I’ve asked him for the studies that he read that support that idea. I hope to see what he can provide later this week
. Has anyone ran into this opposition before or can validate it?

A lot of questions in there. Any insight, help or direction is very much appreciated.

[rp1954]

As we currently understand her cancer genetics she is KRAS and BRAF wild.

What is her CA199, LDH, HgbA1C hsCRP or ESR ? The more blood data you have, the better you can tune these things.

I have a question about high dose Vitamin C infusions (HDVC)….. I have read a number of studies on this and most seem to point to positive benefits. The only negative was actually found on cancer.org’s website. [https://www.cancer.gov/about-cancer/treatment/cam/patient/vitamin-c-pdq]

Conventional medicine's view has been greatly distorted by Mortel's biases (70s-80s) and fellow travellers, where 35 yrs confusion followed with little science achieved or retained. Very slow progress, with limited clinical diffusion.

“Patients with refractory metastatic colorectal cancer or metastatic melanoma were treated with IV vitamin C combined with other drugs. The treatment had no anticancer effect, the tumor continued to grow during treatment, and patients had serious side effects.

Some cancer cell lines do not respond to vitamin C; some very nasty cell lines do respond, especially to particular cocktails. What's missing is the support to tell who is who, and exactly what will work. In our lab's tissue results, 5FU+C+MK4 worked better than any conventional chemo cocktail (5FU,-iri, -ox, gem-) for my wife but more mild adjuncts were needed to keep things going our way.



My wife suffers from nausea, GI issues, and severe fatigue which we assume are chemo related. I’ve heard that HDVC can potentially help to eliminate those side-effects.


Yes, IV vitamin C can ameliorate many chemo and cancer related problems but it is not a panacea. IV vitamin C works best with some skill and insight, with cocktails. Some alternative IV vitamin C cocktails for other medical problems are contraindicated for successful cancer uses.

Beyond that, some studies want to attribute anti-cancer properties which would be a bonus.

Studies that I've seen associate C's properties with HIF-1a levels, histamine levels, KRAS/BRAF mutation, particular inflammation, particular cell lines, collagen formation, sugar transport, storage and metabolism, and indirectly, VEGF-A formation.



We raised the idea to her oncologist and got push back. He stated the vitamin C protects the cancer cell. I’ve read about that idea but it seems the high dose nature of the infusion might act differently than a low dose vitamin C? I’ve asked him for the studies that he read that support that idea. I hope to see what he can provide later this week

There are a number of facets to the issue. He's already told you that he is out of the immediate information loop about what likely works and what doesn't.



Has anyone ran into this opposition before

Sure, frequently and often condesendingly. In 2010, it was a quick and dirty test whether an MD was "conventional" or "alternative". In the case of the former, I simply moved on to other, more useful topics. Much debate wastes your time, good will, credibility and money. Spend your money on their best skills and specialized information, not their weakest ones.

[Pyro]

Its considered alternative and it will be dismissed by most, for good reason.

[Utwo]

Vitamine C is water soluble and rather harmless. It doesn't accumulate in your body and its excess is excreted by your kidneys.
Quite a few people (including me) acted as guinea pigs consuming a lot of vitamin C to validate hypothesis of Linus Pauling that vitamin C is effective against common cold.
AFAIK there was no negative effect attributed to high vitamin C doses.

So you may use high vitamin C doses if you want. At the same time other placebos may be as effective as vitamin C.

https://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/pauling.html

[Lee]

As we currently understand her cancer genetics she is KRAS and BRAF wild.

What is her CA199, LDH, HgbA1C hsCRP or ESR ? The more blood data you have, the better you can tune these things.

I have a question about high dose Vitamin C infusions (HDVC)….. I have read a number of studies on this and most seem to point to positive benefits. The only negative was actually found on cancer.org’s website. [https://www.cancer.gov/about-cancer/treatment/cam/patient/vitamin-c-pdq]

Conventional medicine's view has been greatly distorted by Mortel's biases (70s-80s) and fellow travellers, where 35 yrs confusion followed with little science achieved or retained. Very slow progress, with limited clinical diffusion.

“Patients with refractory metastatic colorectal cancer or metastatic melanoma were treated with IV vitamin C combined with other drugs. The treatment had no anticancer effect, the tumor continued to grow during treatment, and patients had serious side effects.

Some cancer cell lines do not respond to vitamin C; some very nasty cell lines do respond, especially to particular cocktails. What's missing is the support to tell who is who, and exactly what will work. In our lab's tissue results, 5FU+C+MK4 worked better than any conventional chemo cocktail (5FU,-iri, -ox, gem-) for my wife but more mild adjuncts were needed to keep things going our way.



My wife suffers from nausea, GI issues, and severe fatigue which we assume are chemo related. I’ve heard that HDVC can potentially help to eliminate those side-effects.


Yes, IV vitamin C can ameliorate many chemo and cancer related problems but it is not a panacea. IV vitamin C works best with some skill and insight, with cocktails. Some alternative IV vitamin C cocktails for other medical problems are contraindicated for successful cancer uses.

Beyond that, some studies want to attribute anti-cancer properties which would be a bonus.

Studies that I've seen associate C's properties with HIF-1a levels, histamine levels, KRAS/BRAF mutation, particular inflammation, particular cell lines, collagen formation, sugar transport, storage and metabolism, and indirectly, VEGF-A formation.



We raised the idea to her oncologist and got push back. He stated the vitamin C protects the cancer cell. I’ve read about that idea but it seems the high dose nature of the infusion might act differently than a low dose vitamin C? I’ve asked him for the studies that he read that support that idea. I hope to see what he can provide later this week

There are a number of facets to the issue. He's already told you that he is out of the immediate information loop about what likely works and what doesn't.



Has anyone ran into this opposition before

Sure, frequently and often condesendingly. In 2010, it was a quick and dirty test whether an MD was "conventional" or "alternative". In the case of the former, I simply moved on to other, more useful topics. Much debate wastes your time, good will, credibility and money. Spend your money on their best skills and specialized information, not their weakest ones.

I am a non expert here, butt this person, pr1954. you REALLY want to give him a 2nd look/opinion at!!! At the end of the day, he tends to know his stuff, he thinks outside the box (my humble opinion), butt a very detailed thinker/ expert who is probably on to something at a end of the day. He's been around here for a very long time for a very good reason, he tends to knows his stuff. Listen to him. Just my humble opinion!!

[Pyro]

He speaks in circles and gives no specifics, I wouldn’t listen at all. These people are dangerous, dangerous for people looking for hope in a dark situation.

[hiker]

This is my first post to Colon Talk. My wife was diagnosed, just before Christmas 2018, with stage IV colon cancer on her left side. My wife has a couple mets in her liver. We reside in Utah and have started chemo (folfox) but have already reached out to Dr. Kemeny in NYC. We also understand that Dr. Fakih at City of Hope is doing an HAI pump trial (anyone familiar with this doctor?). As we currently understand her cancer genetics she is KRAS and BRAF wild.

Hey dhamptonii,

My suggestion, for what it's worth, is to push for Dr. Kemeny. Since your wife is KRAS wild and only has liver mets, she would most likely qualify for Dr. Kemeny's trial involving the Codman HAI pump and systemic chemo with added Vectibix. I was part of that trial. The woman is amazing. As far as I'm aware, MSK is the only facility that still has Codman pumps.

hiker

[GrouseMan]

Vitamine C is water soluble and rather harmless. It doesn't accumulate in your body and its excess is excreted by your kidneys.
Quite a few people (including me) acted as guinea pigs consuming a lot of vitamin C to validate hypothesis of Linus Pauling that vitamin C is effective against common cold.
AFAIK there was no negative effect attributed to high vitamin C doses.

So you may use high vitamin C doses if you want. At the same time other placebos may be as effective as vitamin C.

https://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/pauling.html

Ya - Didn't save Linus Pauling did it? He was one of my Chemistry Hero's! Brilliant in some respects not so much in others.

https://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRe ... uling.html

Just goes to show that even with two Nobel Prizes - your not right all the time.

GrouseMan

[mpbser]

"As far as I'm aware, MSK is the only facility that still has Codman pumps."

It doesn't any longer. The very last of the Codman pumps at MSK were used at the beginning of February. My husband was supposed to get one. Due to a pause in the Medtronic-Codman adaptation trial, the Codmans got placed in people scheduled for surgery during the study hiatus, leaving none left.

[FightCRC]

A couple of followup points:

-- Sorry to say, there are no more Codmans left, not even for Dr. Kemeny's trial.

-- We consulted with both City of Hope and MSK for the HAI pump last year. Our first choice was Dr. Kemeny and MSK. If she didn't accept us as patients, our backup was City of Hope. Can further elaborate it you like.

-- I would pay very close attention to what rp1954 says. You don't have to fully understand, you don't have to agree 100% with what he posts...but needs to be acknowledged that his wife has survived with Stage IV CRC since 2010. It's unlikely due solely to luck.

[dhamptonii]

"As far as I'm aware, MSK is the only facility that still has Codman pumps."

It doesn't any longer. The very last of the Codman pumps at MSK were used at the beginning of February. My husband was supposed to get one. Due to a pause in the Medtronic-Codman adaptation trial, the Codmans got placed in people scheduled for surgery during the study hiatus, leaving none left.

We were told by my wife's oncologist PA that she was KRAS wild. I asked for the report and finally got it yesterday. She is KRAS mutant. Bummer and frustrating. Is Kemeny doing the trial with Codman pumps or the Medtronic pumps? Will Medtronic pumps be available in the future? Arae KRAS mutant eligible or does something about the mutation exclude them?

[dhamptonii]

A couple of followup points:

-- Sorry to say, there are no more Codmans left, not even for Dr. Kemeny's trial.

-- We consulted with both City of Hope and MSK for the HAI pump last year. Our first choice was Dr. Kemeny and MSK. If she didn't accept us as patients, our backup was City of Hope. Can further elaborate it you like.

-- I would pay very close attention to what rp1954 says. You don't have to fully understand, you don't have to agree 100% with what he posts...but needs to be acknowledged that his wife has survived with Stage IV CRC since 2010. It's unlikely due solely to luck.

I would love to know more about City of Hope. We've already had a very high level conversation with Dr. Kemeny's office in early January. She wants us to do several treatments and then a scan and report back to her. If pumps aren't available is City of Hope a good alternative?

[mpbser]

"needs to be acknowledged that his wife has survived with Stage IV CRC since 2010. It's unlikely due solely to luck."

That's right and the only chemo was Xeloda. Definitely has done things right.

[dhamptonii]

What is her CA199, LDH, HgbA1C hsCRP or ESR ? The more blood data you have, the better you can tune these things.

Do I ask her doctor to requisition these specific levels? I presume they aren't common and I should ask the PA when we go in today for a lab order? She has her 4th treatment today and starts Avastin.

Some cancer cell lines do not respond to vitamin C; some very nasty cell lines do respond, especially to particular cocktails. What's missing is the support to tell who is who, and exactly what will work. In our lab's tissue results, 5FU+C+MK4 worked better than any conventional chemo cocktail (5FU,-iri, -ox, gem-) for my wife but more mild adjuncts were needed to keep things going our way.

How did you get the lab tissue results? Is that something I can ask for? Would they be in the genetics report I just got?





Yes, IV vitamin C can ameliorate many chemo and cancer related problems but it is not a panacea. IV vitamin C works best with some skill and insight, with cocktails. Some alternative IV vitamin C cocktails for other medical problems are contraindicated for successful cancer uses.

I'm all ears. I'll track down and get whatever data is helpful.

Studies that I've seen associate C's properties with HIF-1a levels, histamine levels, KRAS/BRAF mutation, particular inflammation, particular cell lines, collagen formation, sugar transport, storage and metabolism, and indirectly, VEGF-A formation.

I've found out the initial report to us that she was KRAS wild was incorrect. She is KRAS mutant with the specific aberration of Gly12Asp. Its says the other aberrations are APC and TP53. I have yet to understand the implication of those other 2 aberrations.




We raised the idea to her oncologist and got push back. He stated the vitamin C protects the cancer cell. I’ve read about that idea but it seems the high dose nature of the infusion might act differently than a low dose vitamin C? I’ve asked him for the studies that he read that support that idea. I hope to see what he can provide later this week.




There are a number of facets to the issue. He's already told you that he is out of the immediate information loop about what likely works and what doesn't.




Has anyone ran into this opposition before




Sure, frequently and often condesendingly. In 2010, it was a quick and dirty test whether an MD was "conventional" or "alternative". In the case of the former, I simply moved on to other, more useful topics. Much debate wastes your time, good will, credibility and money. Spend your money on their best skills and specialized information, not their weakest ones.

I like this. Will use.

[Pyro]

"needs to be acknowledged that his wife has survived with Stage IV CRC since 2010. It's unlikely due solely to luck."

That's right and the only chemo was Xeloda. Definitely has done things right.

And that is an absolute touchdown.