Acupuncture or dry needling for neuropathy

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susie0915
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Acupuncture or dry needling for neuropathy

Postby susie0915 » Thu Oct 12, 2017 1:59 pm

I was wondering if anyone has tried acupuncture or dry needling for neuropathy. I was talking to my physical therapist and he said dry needling has been
used to neuropathy. It is done by physical therapists and I think it's like acupuncture. And today I was at my appt with oncology counselor and she mentioned
that she has had patients use acupuncture with success. I was thinking of trying. Just wondering since I don't have a lot of pain just tingling and numbness if it will work for me. But, even any improvement would be good.
58 yr old mother of 3 Dx @ 55
5/15 DX T3N0MO/ 2A
6/15 5 wks of chemo/rad
7/15 sigmoidoscopy/scar tissue left
8/15 Pet scan NED
9/15 LAR
0/24 nodes
10/15 Bowel blockage. 3 1/2 weeks in hospital,early ileo rev, c-diff inf :(
12/15 6 rds of xelox
5/16 Clear CT lung scarring/inflammation
9/16 clear colonoscopy
4/17 CT 4mm lung nod onc thinks scar tissue
monitored for autoimmune disorder/interstitial lung disease
7/17 no change lung nodule
10/17 Clear CT
11/17 CEA<.5

KimT
Posts: 558
Joined: Sat Feb 20, 2010 8:53 pm

Re: Acupuncture or dry needling for neuropathy

Postby KimT » Thu Oct 12, 2017 3:30 pm

I had some success with pemf therapy. They shoot electrical impulses in targeted areas. My neuropathy isn't gone completely but I am off all medication for it and it only really bothers me when it's really cold out.
2/10 dx colon cancer
right hemicolectomy 3/19/10
Stage 2a 0/43 nodes
Lynch syndrome
3/14/10 colon resection/ removal of metal clips
Nov 11 dx ovarian cancer

karaj
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Re: Acupuncture or dry needling for neuropathy

Postby karaj » Thu Oct 12, 2017 4:06 pm

Hi Susie0915 -

I had twice weekly acupuncture to help relieve my neuropathy and it was wonderful. The neuropathy didn't go away, but the one time I had to skip a session the difference was really noticeable. I was on oxi during a Massachusetts winter and was mostly experiencing cold sensitivity and tingling feet and fingertips. It lasted a few months after I finished chemo.

Beyond helping the neuropathy, those sessions allowed me to just be. There was nothing else for me to do but be still and breathe. I took the best naps and felt rejuvenated each time. I highly recommend it.

Best of luck!

Kara
35 y/o female, dx at 32
8/14 dx Stage IIIC, 10/30 lymph nodes
8/14-9/14: sigmoidoscopy, fertility preservation, port-a-cath
9/14 - 3/15: FOLFOX (allergic to oxaliplatin, underwent desensitization)
4/15: NED
1/16: dx Stage IV, recurrence in three lymph nodes behind abdomen
2/16: started FOLFIRI
8/16: NED
8/17: NED, staying off chemo until next recurrence
http://www.karaincancerland.com

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susie0915
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Facebook Username: Susan DeGrazia Hostetter
Location: Michigan

Re: Acupuncture or dry needling for neuropathy

Postby susie0915 » Thu Oct 12, 2017 4:10 pm

Thanks. I think I'll try. I found a physical therapist that does dry needling, and the spa at my cancer hospital offers acupuncture. I'm going for a scan
on Monday, so I'll stop in and talk to them. They offer yoga also, I may get back to that as well. I figure it cannot hurt to try.
58 yr old mother of 3 Dx @ 55
5/15 DX T3N0MO/ 2A
6/15 5 wks of chemo/rad
7/15 sigmoidoscopy/scar tissue left
8/15 Pet scan NED
9/15 LAR
0/24 nodes
10/15 Bowel blockage. 3 1/2 weeks in hospital,early ileo rev, c-diff inf :(
12/15 6 rds of xelox
5/16 Clear CT lung scarring/inflammation
9/16 clear colonoscopy
4/17 CT 4mm lung nod onc thinks scar tissue
monitored for autoimmune disorder/interstitial lung disease
7/17 no change lung nodule
10/17 Clear CT
11/17 CEA<.5

Ron50
Posts: 628
Joined: Fri Feb 10, 2006 7:04 pm

Re: Acupuncture or dry needling for neuropathy

Postby Ron50 » Thu Oct 12, 2017 4:11 pm

I tried dry needling, I've also tried endep,lyrica,neurontin,norspan & fentanyl patches and targin (oxycodone and naloxone) none of them helped. I did not have any of the platinum drugs as chemo just 5fu enhanced with levamisole. My neuropathy was dxed by a neurologist via nerve conductivity tests. He said I had moderate to severe motor sensory peripheral neuropathy of both feet and legs. He did not know what caused it and refused to treat it. I have had it for most of my 20 years of survival . Ron.
dx 1/98
st 3 c 6 nodes
48 sessions 5Fu/levamisole
no recurrence cea <.5
numerous l/t side effects of chemo

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susie0915
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Re: Acupuncture or dry needling for neuropathy

Postby susie0915 » Thu Oct 12, 2017 4:35 pm

Ron50 wrote:I tried dry needling, I've also tried endep,lyrica,neurontin,norspan & fentanyl patches and targin (oxycodone and naloxone) none of them helped. I did not have any of the platinum drugs as chemo just 5fu enhanced with levamisole. My neuropathy was dxed by a neurologist via nerve conductivity tests. He said I had moderate to severe motor sensory peripheral neuropathy of both feet and legs. He did not know what caused it and refused to treat it. I have had it for most of my 20 years of survival . Ron.

Hmm. My oncologist gave me neurontin, don't really want to take it. My neuropathy didn't really start until after I finished chemo, so couldn't even see
if dose reduction would've helped. It has gotten better, don't drop things as much or lose my balance, but it is really annoying. Not too painful, just
uncomfortable especially on hard surfaces. I figure it can't hurt. I've kind've resided myself to probably having permanently. It has been 18 months since
I finished treatment.
58 yr old mother of 3 Dx @ 55
5/15 DX T3N0MO/ 2A
6/15 5 wks of chemo/rad
7/15 sigmoidoscopy/scar tissue left
8/15 Pet scan NED
9/15 LAR
0/24 nodes
10/15 Bowel blockage. 3 1/2 weeks in hospital,early ileo rev, c-diff inf :(
12/15 6 rds of xelox
5/16 Clear CT lung scarring/inflammation
9/16 clear colonoscopy
4/17 CT 4mm lung nod onc thinks scar tissue
monitored for autoimmune disorder/interstitial lung disease
7/17 no change lung nodule
10/17 Clear CT
11/17 CEA<.5

MissMolly
Posts: 443
Joined: Wed Jun 03, 2015 4:33 pm
Location: Portland, Ore

Re: Acupuncture or dry needling for neuropathy

Postby MissMolly » Thu Oct 12, 2017 5:35 pm

Susie:
I was a physical therapist by profession before frail health side-lined me. I employed both wet and dry needling to individuals troubled by discomforting neuropathy - and saw fairly good results overall.

Wet needling involves use of topical analgesics (lidocaine) and / or Botox applied to the tips of the needles. Dry needling is as the name implies - no added medication, just the thin acupuncture type needle.

Dry and wet needling are based on the principles of acupuncture. Fine/thin bore needles are inserted superficially under the dermal layer to points in the foot and lower leg using reflexology charts and Eastern Chinese Medicine references. There is absolutely no pain involved. No risk of infection (as the needle is superficially inserted, similar to a TB test).

A helpful means of tempering neuropathy is to provide purposeful input into the sensory nervous system of the feet and lower legs where affected. Purposeful incoming stimuli has the effect of lowering the abberant mis-firing of the damaged sensory nerve fibers. This can include:
1. Walking. The act of walking provides sensory input into the feet through weight-bearing and the repetitive rhythm of step sequencing. Many members in this forum (noteably Lee) provide anecdotal evidence of the value of walking in quieting neuropathy.
2. Wearing of light compression knee high socks. Wearing Lycra knee high socks or light compression anti-emboli socks (10-12 mg HG). The effect is analogous to swaddling a crying infant. Firing sensory nerves are calmed by the constant pressure.
3. Use of a roller pin for the feet. Roller pins (that look like old fashioned pins for rolling bread dough) can be found through Amazon and Relax the Back. These pins have small projections or roughened surfaces. The concept is to roll the surface of the foot forward and backward over the roller pin, mobilizing the plantar surface of the foot.
4. Warm water contrast bath. Fill a plastic tub with cool water and a second plastic tub with warm/hot water. Alternate placing each foot in the warm basin for 2 minutes with placing in the cool basin for 1 minute - as tolerated. The alternating vasodilation and vasoconstriction serves to break-up the errant sensory nerve firing and to re-establish normalicy of the autonomic nervous system.

Neuropathy can be an ongoing source of distress that can adversely impact quality of life. Best wishes in finding a means to ease your discomfort.
Karen
Devoted daughter to my father, diagnosed with stage 2 colon cancer Nov-2014.
Dear friend to Bella Piazza, former CC member.
I have a permanent ileostomy and offer advice on living with an ostomy.
I have been on Palliative Care for broad endocrine failure + Addison's disease + osteonecrosis of both hips/jaw + immunosuppression and recurrent infection x 4 years. I transitioned to Hospice Sept-2016, but it was not yet my time. I am back on Palliative Care and live a simple life due to frail health.

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susie0915
Posts: 544
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Facebook Username: Susan DeGrazia Hostetter
Location: Michigan

Re: Acupuncture or dry needling for neuropathy

Postby susie0915 » Thu Oct 12, 2017 7:48 pm

MissMolly wrote:Susie:
I was a physical therapist by profession before frail health side-lined me. I employed both wet and dry needling to individuals troubled by discomforting neuropathy - and saw fairly good results overall.

Wet needling involves use of topical analgesics (lidocaine) and / or Botox applied to the tips of the needles. Dry needling is as the name implies - no added medication, just the thin acupuncture type needle.

Dry and wet needling are based on the principles of acupuncture. Fine/thin bore needles are inserted superficially under the dermal layer to points in the foot and lower leg using reflexology charts and Eastern Chinese Medicine references. There is absolutely no pain involved. No risk of infection (as the needle is superficially inserted, similar to a TB test).

A helpful means of tempering neuropathy is to provide purposeful input into the sensory nervous system of the feet and lower legs where affected. Purposeful incoming stimuli has the effect of lowering the abberant mis-firing of the damaged sensory nerve fibers. This can include:
1. Walking. The act of walking provides sensory input into the feet through weight-bearing and the repetitive rhythm of step sequencing. Many members in this forum (noteably Lee) provide anecdotal evidence of the value of walking in quieting neuropathy.
2. Wearing of light compression knee high socks. Wearing Lycra knee high socks or light compression anti-emboli socks (10-12 mg HG). The effect is analogous to swaddling a crying infant. Firing sensory nerves are calmed by the constant pressure.
3. Use of a roller pin for the feet. Roller pins (that look like old fashioned pins for rolling bread dough) can be found through Amazon and Relax the Back. These pins have small projections or roughened surfaces. The concept is to roll the surface of the foot forward and backward over the roller pin, mobilizing the plantar surface of the foot.
4. Warm water contrast bath. Fill a plastic tub with cool water and a second plastic tub with warm/hot water. Alternate placing each foot in the warm basin for 2 minutes with placing in the cool basin for 1 minute - as tolerated. The alternating vasodilation and vasoconstriction serves to break-up the errant sensory nerve firing and to re-establish normalicy of the autonomic nervous system.

Neuropathy can be an ongoing source of distress that can adversely impact quality of life. Best wishes in finding a means to ease your discomfort.
Karen

Thank you Karen. I do find moving makes it feel better. I did get a massager that has a grid like surface and vibrates. So I use that. Luckily the neuropathy doesn't prevent me from doing anything but is annoying. Numbness and tingling. I think I'll try dry needling. Do you think acupuncture would be helpful as well? I will also check into the roller pin as well. Thanks again you response was so informative. I will keep you updated
58 yr old mother of 3 Dx @ 55
5/15 DX T3N0MO/ 2A
6/15 5 wks of chemo/rad
7/15 sigmoidoscopy/scar tissue left
8/15 Pet scan NED
9/15 LAR
0/24 nodes
10/15 Bowel blockage. 3 1/2 weeks in hospital,early ileo rev, c-diff inf :(
12/15 6 rds of xelox
5/16 Clear CT lung scarring/inflammation
9/16 clear colonoscopy
4/17 CT 4mm lung nod onc thinks scar tissue
monitored for autoimmune disorder/interstitial lung disease
7/17 no change lung nodule
10/17 Clear CT
11/17 CEA<.5

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CRguy
Posts: 9323
Joined: Sun Feb 10, 2008 6:00 pm

Re: Acupuncture or dry needling for neuropathy

Postby CRguy » Thu Oct 12, 2017 10:15 pm

susie0915 wrote: I think I'll try dry needling. Do you think acupuncture would be helpful as well?

Just to clarify a bit here ( I am certified in acupuncture )

"dry needling " simply refers to using acu needles into whatever points they choose, as opposed to
- "aquapuncture" = injection of a liquid into a point
- "laserpuncture " = laser stimulation of a point
- "electroacupuncture " = low level electrical stimulation of a point

Had all done and I have DONE all of these .... BUTT ( you just knew there had to be one !!!! :mrgreen: )

actual TCM acupuncture will be done by a certified acupuncturist using modern and /or traditional acupuncture theory

"dry needling " may be done by any number of physio / rehab / therapists using needles to stimulate body tissues ( muscle/tendons usually )
BUTT without the actual acupuncture theories to guide them.... just using the same kind of needles.

Some may feel it may be a distinction without a difference, BUTT they can be two very different experiences, with very different outcomes
If you see a certified Doctor of Traditional Chinese Medicine, you will be getting acupuncture.
If you see anyone else, you will be seeing someone who uses acupuncture needles in their chosen field of practice without the basis of TCM.
Just so you know !

Give both a try and let us know how it goes.

Cheers
CR
Caregiver x 3
Stage IV A rectal cancer/lung met
10 Year survivor
my life is an ongoing totally randomized UNcontrolled experiment with N=1 !
Review of my Journey so far

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susie0915
Posts: 544
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Facebook Username: Susan DeGrazia Hostetter
Location: Michigan

Re: Acupuncture or dry needling for neuropathy

Postby susie0915 » Fri Oct 13, 2017 10:11 am

I may try both. My cancer hospital offers acupuncture in their spa, so I'm going to stop in a check it out Monday when I have my scan.
I'll talk to them and see what they say. I did find a therapist that does dry needling and I am going to talk to her on Tuesday. I think it's
worth trying. I'll keep you guys updated.
58 yr old mother of 3 Dx @ 55
5/15 DX T3N0MO/ 2A
6/15 5 wks of chemo/rad
7/15 sigmoidoscopy/scar tissue left
8/15 Pet scan NED
9/15 LAR
0/24 nodes
10/15 Bowel blockage. 3 1/2 weeks in hospital,early ileo rev, c-diff inf :(
12/15 6 rds of xelox
5/16 Clear CT lung scarring/inflammation
9/16 clear colonoscopy
4/17 CT 4mm lung nod onc thinks scar tissue
monitored for autoimmune disorder/interstitial lung disease
7/17 no change lung nodule
10/17 Clear CT
11/17 CEA<.5

MissMolly
Posts: 443
Joined: Wed Jun 03, 2015 4:33 pm
Location: Portland, Ore

Re: Acupuncture or dry needling for neuropathy

Postby MissMolly » Fri Oct 13, 2017 3:03 pm

Susie:
CR Guy brings up a valid point as to the educational background of the practitioner of either/or acupuncture and dry needling.

A background of Traditional Chinese Medicine provides a level of efficacy to acupuncture and dry needling that is not to be discounted.

Your “average” physical therapist is not going to have a sufficient background in energy flow lines/meridians and reflexology to provide best evidence-based dry needling.

CR Guy is correct that an individual with credentials in traditional Chinese medicine would be your best choice for either acupuncture or dry needling.

Talk with the provider of your cancer center and with the physical therapist that you have identified. Tease out their level of evidence-based education and training. There are unscrupulous providers in almost every setting. Do your due diligence.
Karen
Devoted daughter to my father, diagnosed with stage 2 colon cancer Nov-2014.
Dear friend to Bella Piazza, former CC member.
I have a permanent ileostomy and offer advice on living with an ostomy.
I have been on Palliative Care for broad endocrine failure + Addison's disease + osteonecrosis of both hips/jaw + immunosuppression and recurrent infection x 4 years. I transitioned to Hospice Sept-2016, but it was not yet my time. I am back on Palliative Care and live a simple life due to frail health.

User avatar
susie0915
Posts: 544
Joined: Wed Aug 02, 2017 8:17 am
Facebook Username: Susan DeGrazia Hostetter
Location: Michigan

Re: Acupuncture or dry needling for neuropathy

Postby susie0915 » Fri Oct 13, 2017 3:24 pm

You're right. I will ask a lot of questions during my consultation with the physical therapist as well as acupuncture therapist at my cancer center spa. Thanks
58 yr old mother of 3 Dx @ 55
5/15 DX T3N0MO/ 2A
6/15 5 wks of chemo/rad
7/15 sigmoidoscopy/scar tissue left
8/15 Pet scan NED
9/15 LAR
0/24 nodes
10/15 Bowel blockage. 3 1/2 weeks in hospital,early ileo rev, c-diff inf :(
12/15 6 rds of xelox
5/16 Clear CT lung scarring/inflammation
9/16 clear colonoscopy
4/17 CT 4mm lung nod onc thinks scar tissue
monitored for autoimmune disorder/interstitial lung disease
7/17 no change lung nodule
10/17 Clear CT
11/17 CEA<.5


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