Pelvic floor (ass) pain

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MissMolly
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Joined: Wed Jun 03, 2015 4:33 pm
Location: Portland, Ore

Re: Pelvic floor (ass) pain

Postby MissMolly » Sat Sep 24, 2016 7:09 pm

Kristi:
I think we need to clarify some of your understanding of the normal rectum and the J-pouch.

teachpdx wrote:The rectum normally exits through basically a pipe. When the Jpouch is created where does it sit? Is it suspended or is it resting on a muscle that should not have anything resting on it? Also what about physics? You replace a pipe with a rubberband - how does that works? Seems to me that the muscles that normally would be surrounding the rectum would become stretched or slack. Is it possible that it's NOT possible to overcome the laws of physics? Been asking that question from the get go.


a. The rectum does not "exit through a pipe."
The rectum is, itself, a muscle. The rectum is a very dense and thick muscle.

Factoid: The rectum and the tongue are the two thickest muscles in the body.

The muscle fibers of the rectum differ from the rest of the large intestine that precedes it. The muscle fibers of the rectum contain added collagen and elastin and are laid in both perpendicular and horizontal directions. This allows the rectum, as an organ, to expand in shape and size to an extent not seen in the remainder of the large intestine. This gives the rectum storage capacity for feces/stool.

Note that one of the key symptoms of LAR syndrome is multiple bowel movements a day (10-15 +) and clustering episodes. This is primarily due to nerve damage of the pudendal nerve and sacral nerve roots S3-S5, occasionally the obturator nerve.

It is the rectum that enables an individual to be able to hold and retain feces for defecation at a later time. There is both voluntary and involuntary anal sphincter. The voluntary sphincter control allows an individual to hold/retain feces - to a certain point - where it may be more appropriate to have a bowel movement.

b. A J-pouch is created by a 6-8 inch segment of the terminal end of the small intestine (ileum). The length of small intestine is fashioned in the shape of the letter "J" (sometimes in the shape of the letter "K" or the letter "W").

A J-pouch is also referred to as a neo-rectum. Neo-rectum is a name well-suited. The section of small intestine is of narrow-width (1 inch or 1 1/4 inch in circumference), no where near the normal width of a natural rectum (3-4 inch width). The section of small intestine does not have the inherit ability to stretch and expand as does the natural rectum. In creating a J-pouch, it is expected that the segment of small intestine will learn how to adapt and function in accordance to a natural rectum. This can be a tall order for a non-differentiated segment of intestine.

Problems with J-pouches generally are functional problems. That is, failure of the J-pouch to function like a normal rectum.

Again, you are asking a segment of small intestine to function like a rectum in creating a J-pouch. The normal role of the small intestine is the absorption of food nutrients. The lumen of the small intestine has hundreds of small finger like projections called villa. Each villa has a small blood capillary and a small lymph capillary through which nutrients glucose are transferred into the blood stream for metabolic use by the body at a cellular level. As you can see, the lining of the small intestine is much more delicate and sophisticated than that of the rough-and-tumble rectum.

Your J-pouch is not sitting suspended in your pelvis. The surgeon does anchor the segment of small intestine to the wall of the pelvic floor and to the pelvic sling. The pelvic sling is a suspension of ligaments and tendons that supports the rectum, bladder and vagina.

c. I do not quite see your analogy of replacing a pipe with a rubber band, in describing the J-pouch creation.

The rectum, in its own right, is a muscle . . . not a pipe.

The job of the small intestine is the absorption of nutrients and food energy/glucose as digested food material passes through its length. The length of the average small intestine is 15 feet.

The job of the large intestine is the absorption of water and the storage of residual indigestible/non-soluble material as it passes toward the anus for evacuation. The terminal end of the large intestine, the rectum, has the ability to expand and stretch that allows for contained storage until it is convenient to have a bowel movement.

The large intestine and rectum has enteric muscle cells that help propel the residual food material out the body via the anus. Think of the enteric muscle cells as a sort of back-up generator system.

So where does this leave you with your rectal and anal pain?
You might want to look up information on the topic of pudendal nerve entrapment.

The pudendal nerve is one of the primary nerve bundles that serves/innervates the pelvis. The pudendal nerve is often implicated in chronic pelvic pain.

Sacral roots S3-S5 also serve and innervate the pelvis.

Muscles that can become tight and shortened in the pelvis that can contribute to pain include: 1. the piriformis; 2. the levator ani; 3. the obturator interns; and 4. the coccyges muscles.

I highly recommend pilates as an activity for individuals with chronic pelvic pain. The postures and poses are great for stretching and mobilizing muscles, ligaments, and connective tissue of the pelvis and pelvic floor.

For reading on the subject of pelvic pain, there is no better book (in my opinion) than "Heal Pelvic Pain" by Amy Stein, DPT.
Amy Stein holds a Ph.D in physical therapy. You can read excerpts from her book at the web site:
www.healpelvicpain.com

Well, I've written a truck load here - which I had no intention of doing when I started. Of what I have written, take what works for you and disregard the rest.

I hope that you find a measure of relief from your rectal and anal pain,
- Karen -
Dear friend to Bella Piazza, former Colon Club member (NWGirl).
I have a permanent ileostomy and offer advice on living with an ostomy - in loving remembrance of Bella
I am on Palliative Care for broad endocrine failure + Addison's disease + osteonecrosis of both hips/jaw + immunosuppression. I live a simple life due to frail health.

teachpdx
Posts: 634
Joined: Wed Jan 16, 2013 12:29 am
Location: Portland, OR

Re: Pelvic floor (ass) pain

Postby teachpdx » Sun Sep 25, 2016 9:01 pm

MissMolly. My comment about the rectum being a pipe is an 'analogy' in reference to it's sturdiness. As I mentioned in an earlier post I've taken college level anatomy & physiology and am well versed in the anatomy of the rectum.

Also my connection is from my colon to my anus NOT my small intestine. Other than that don't know what to say except that my ass hurts & I'm pretty sure it's my anus.
4/24/12 RC T3N1M0 age 53
5/23-7/2 - 26 chemorad - Xeloda
7/16 Lynch- MSH2
8/28 LAR w/ temp ileo, CR, 0/11,M0, hysterectomy
10/13 6 cycles Xeloda - completed only 1 1/2 due to HFS
3/12/13 - reversal
8/13 NED
6/15 - HFS gone!

MissMolly
Posts: 645
Joined: Wed Jun 03, 2015 4:33 pm
Location: Portland, Ore

Re: Pelvic floor (ass) pain

Postby MissMolly » Mon Sep 26, 2016 10:35 am

Kristi:
My intention is not to frustrate or anger you further . . . so I will keep myself brief in reply.

That you had your colon attached to your anus implies that you have what is called a "direct connect." Not a J-pouch.

Yours, then, is likely a direct connect of the sigmoid colon to the anus.

A J-pouch involves complete removal of the large intestine (due to cancer, but also due to Chron's or Ulcerative Colitis) and routing of the terminal end of the small intestine, the ileum, to the anus. The ileum is shaped in formation of either the letter "J" or "K" or "W." The shaping of the small intestine is to provide a functional storage capacity for a segment of intestine that will serve as a neo-rectum.

Regardless, I get it that you butt hurts.

Do look at the book that I mentioned on healing pelvic pain. It is a comprehensive book packed full of practical advice and information that you can use in discussing your anal pain with your medical team.

I will not bother you any further and sincerely do hope that you are able to find a measure of relief.
- Karen -
Dear friend to Bella Piazza, former Colon Club member (NWGirl).
I have a permanent ileostomy and offer advice on living with an ostomy - in loving remembrance of Bella
I am on Palliative Care for broad endocrine failure + Addison's disease + osteonecrosis of both hips/jaw + immunosuppression. I live a simple life due to frail health.

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kellywin
Posts: 492
Joined: Wed Jan 23, 2013 4:46 pm
Location: Northern CA

Re: Pelvic floor (ass) pain

Postby kellywin » Mon Sep 26, 2016 6:34 pm

Kristi - so sorry you are having so much pain. I have nothing to offer, but to say I'm sorry and I know what it's like living with pain, although I think mine is less than yours and not the same.

As a side note, I really want to say thank you to Karen for bringing up EXACTLY what I'm feeling every day of my life. Karen - you're posts are exactly what I've been experiencing and every doctor looks at me like I am nuts! I can't cross my legs very well, can't sit on the flood in my living room, can't sit cross legged, and a whole lot more. I tried physical therapy, but I think I got frustrated and gave up too soon. I didn't go to anyone that focused on pelvic floor though - so maybe I need to re-visit that. Also, so sorry to hear about your transition. Positive thoughts to you.
Kelly, mom 14 yo girl
Dx 11/15/12 Rectal Cancer @ age 40
Stage IIIC
5.5 weeks Xeloda & Radiation - complete 2/5/13
Colectomy 3/12/13, 7 of 14 nodes positive - no ileo
4/24/13-8/20/13 - 5 rounds Xelox, 1 Xeloda only

teachpdx
Posts: 634
Joined: Wed Jan 16, 2013 12:29 am
Location: Portland, OR

Re: Pelvic floor (ass) pain

Postby teachpdx » Tue Sep 27, 2016 1:34 pm

MissMolly wrote:Kristi:
My intention is not to frustrate or anger you further . . . so I will keep myself brief in reply.

That you had your colon attached to your anus implies that you have what is called a "direct connect." Not a J-pouch.

Yours, then, is likely a direct connect of the sigmoid colon to the anus.

A J-pouch involves complete removal of the large intestine (due to cancer, but also due to Chron's or Ulcerative Colitis) and routing of the terminal end of the small intestine, the ileum, to the anus. The ileum is shaped in formation of either the letter "J" or "K" or "W." The shaping of the small intestine is to provide a functional storage capacity for a segment of intestine that will serve as a neo-rectum.

Regardless, I get it that you butt hurts.

Do look at the book that I mentioned on healing pelvic pain. It is a comprehensive book packed full of practical advice and information that you can use in discussing your anal pain with your medical team.

I will not bother you any further and sincerely do hope that you are able to find a measure of relief.
- Karen -


Karen, if you doubt that I have a J-pouch with my colon I'd be happy to send you my medical records. There is no "regardless" Please try and refrain from being an expert on someone else's body. I DID NOT have a direct connect and I DO HAVE a J-pouch. Please do your research and get back to me about there NOT being a J-pouch with the colon.

Peace, Kristi
4/24/12 RC T3N1M0 age 53
5/23-7/2 - 26 chemorad - Xeloda
7/16 Lynch- MSH2
8/28 LAR w/ temp ileo, CR, 0/11,M0, hysterectomy
10/13 6 cycles Xeloda - completed only 1 1/2 due to HFS
3/12/13 - reversal
8/13 NED
6/15 - HFS gone!

MissMolly
Posts: 645
Joined: Wed Jun 03, 2015 4:33 pm
Location: Portland, Ore

Re: Pelvic floor (ass) pain

Postby MissMolly » Tue Sep 27, 2016 3:32 pm

Kristi:
Your hostility toward me is obvious.

No need to displace your energy in anger toward me.

I hold a Master's degree in kinesiology, a master's degree in physical therapy, and a master's degree in business administration - each earned with highest distinction, Phi Beta Kappa.

I will not bother you further. I hope your semester of human anatomy and physiology continues to serve you well as you troubleshoot your pain issues.

I am on Hospice, myself. Not for cancer but for my own life threatening conditions. Your lack of common decency to me is not appealing.

I have offer advice to people with ileostomies on this board out of my deep respect and friendship for Belle (NWGirl) who succumbed to rectal cancer last year. My work here in honoring Belle is done. I just find it unfortunate of you to feel the need to attack me.

Whatever.

I have more important things to attend to in my remaining weeks of life than to be on this forum and deal with people like you.

No need to reply as I am logging out. For good.
- K -
Dear friend to Bella Piazza, former Colon Club member (NWGirl).
I have a permanent ileostomy and offer advice on living with an ostomy - in loving remembrance of Bella
I am on Palliative Care for broad endocrine failure + Addison's disease + osteonecrosis of both hips/jaw + immunosuppression. I live a simple life due to frail health.

ronnieciao
Posts: 95
Joined: Sat Nov 08, 2014 1:58 pm
Location: Northern Italy and UK

Re: Pelvic floor (ass) pain

Postby ronnieciao » Tue Sep 27, 2016 3:55 pm

MissMolly wrote:Kristi:

No need to reply as I am logging out. For good.
- K -


This is very sad. I for one always enjoy your informative posts Karen. I hope you decide to come back if you can. Best wishes, veronica
DD of Mum, 53
Diagnosed CC Stage IVb, October 2014
Mets to liver, peri, ovaries, bones
Folfox + Panitumumab
5fu+Panitumumab
Folfiri + Avastin
Cetuximab monotherapy
Immunotherapy: Tecenriq (Atezolizumab) single agent trial: failed
Left us Feb 2017

teachpdx
Posts: 634
Joined: Wed Jan 16, 2013 12:29 am
Location: Portland, OR

Re: Pelvic floor (ass) pain

Postby teachpdx » Tue Sep 27, 2016 5:07 pm

MissMolly wrote:Kristi:
Your hostility toward me is obvious.

I am on Hospice, myself. Not for cancer but for my own life threatening conditions. Your lack of common decency to me is not appealing.

My work here in honoring Belle is done. I just find it unfortunate of you to feel the need to attack me.

I have more important things to attend to in my remaining weeks of life than to be on this forum and deal with people like you.

No need to reply as I am logging out. For good.
- K -


Karen I am sorry for the situation you are in. I have no hostility towards you, I was just interested in an accurate representation of my situation and felt that wasn't happening. Peace with you,

Kristi
4/24/12 RC T3N1M0 age 53
5/23-7/2 - 26 chemorad - Xeloda
7/16 Lynch- MSH2
8/28 LAR w/ temp ileo, CR, 0/11,M0, hysterectomy
10/13 6 cycles Xeloda - completed only 1 1/2 due to HFS
3/12/13 - reversal
8/13 NED
6/15 - HFS gone!

MissMolly
Posts: 645
Joined: Wed Jun 03, 2015 4:33 pm
Location: Portland, Ore

Re: Pelvic floor (ass) pain

Postby MissMolly » Wed Sep 28, 2016 10:16 am

Reputably, the Cleveland Clinic is one of the country's top rated hospitals for specialized care of the gastrointestinal tract. The Cleveland Clinic is the top rated facility for J-pouch procedures. People come from around the world to the Cleveland Clinic for life-saving surgery in treating Chrons' disease and ulcerative colitis.

Feel free to research methodology of J-pouch construction on the Cleveland Clinic's patient' friendly web-site.

http://www.my.clevelandclinc.org

You will learn that the traditional J-pouch is created in using the terminal end of the ileum (small intestine) to create a "J" shaped pouch that serves as a neo-rectum reservoir.

This concludes my time on this forum and clears any doubt as to my knowledge base.

Your MD may be calling your large intestine connection to your anus a J-pouch but it does not meet the generally accepted definition of a J pouch.

Your critical attacks of me are unjustified.

I have offered of my time and knowledge on this forum out of my deep friendship and respect for Belle (NW girl). Belle often commented to me how lacking was member support of colon club members with ostomies, be they permanent or temporary. Belle asked me to join and provide guidance on ostomy care, knowing also that my father had struggled with a diagnosis of colon cancer before eventually succumbing to lung cancer. I have asked nothing of this forum for myself, so to be treated by you with such brash commenting is uncalled for.

Going on MediCaid, as you are, you may find your choice of physicians more limited.

You will need all the help that you can get.

Logging out.
- Karen -
Dear friend to Bella Piazza, former Colon Club member (NWGirl).
I have a permanent ileostomy and offer advice on living with an ostomy - in loving remembrance of Bella
I am on Palliative Care for broad endocrine failure + Addison's disease + osteonecrosis of both hips/jaw + immunosuppression. I live a simple life due to frail health.


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