Britanny Maynard

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Lisahopes
Posts: 328
Joined: Wed Oct 17, 2012 2:09 pm

Re: Britanny Maynard

Postby Lisahopes » Thu Nov 06, 2014 3:05 pm

The posters who judge this poor woman's choices and condemn her right are disgraceful. They claim that it a slippery slope for handicapped folks and then these very same critics say that these options and risks already exist. :shock: Makes no sense at all.
Daughter to Mom, 65, Stage IV with mets to liver, lungs and peri.
Dx 2006, Stage II.
Regular check October 2011, Stage IV established.
She has had Oxi, Folfox and Xeloda, now Avastin.
Progression.
Mom died on April 5th 2013.

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singingholly
Posts: 1133
Joined: Thu Feb 27, 2014 3:37 am
Location: Northern Italy

Re: Britanny Maynard

Postby singingholly » Thu Nov 06, 2014 3:26 pm

I think human dignity IS the possibility to choose. To choose life, to choose death. To defend this right can never be harmful to anybody.
Dec2011 sigm IIIst res T3N1(2/18)M0 Xelox
Oct2012 5liv.mets Dec 2012 liv.res
Jan2013 1liv.met Folfiri+avastin
Jul2013 liv.res Folfiri+/av
Feb2014 10+2lu.mets & 1abd node Folfoxiri+SBRT
Sep2014 Res rx l. BUT spot on diaph:SBRT
Dec2014 3+6lu.mets.Immuno

robinkaye
Posts: 374
Joined: Fri Nov 11, 2011 10:03 am

Re: Britanny Maynard

Postby robinkaye » Thu Nov 06, 2014 6:15 pm

Kenny, you didn't say racist or homophobe, it was another post where it was said that being against right to die was like being against interracial and gay marriage...just a polite way of saying racist/homophobe.

CR, I read the Canadian Supreme Court decision, the Slate article wasn't too far off and I have mixed feelings. I believe that decision making is between a doctor and patient or their family, not a review board. I also know that sometimes further treatment is pointless. It amazes me how people can get upset with an insurance companies decision to withhold a treatment but don't get upset when the state of Oregon denies chemo to a woman and offers euthanasia instead. Its a lot easier to fight an insurance company than the government.

I also believe its no ones business and Brittany was well within her rights to end her life. I am concerned with the decision making authority being held by our supposed betters. I don't know the best way to address the dilemma but fear just going the way of handing the authority to the government.

There is such thing as a slippery slope. Read this pertaining to the Netherlands: [url]
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3070710/[/url]

Dr Peter Singer has long been advocating for the parents right to euthanize a baby. I am concerned that as a society we will become desensitized - the slippery slope, and this will become acceptable . It's happened before in history, it can again.

I remember when Jackie O died, John came out and said she died on her time and terms, something to that affect. I thought he was telling us that she got a good dose of morphine in a subtle way. I'm sure it happens all the time and we look the other way. No one gets in trouble.

What I don't understand is why people can't just discuss the issue without name calling.
Husband has RC Stage IIIC
Chemorad 9/28-11/07
2 rounds FOLFOX to get rid of iliac LN
LAR Surgery 1/17 ileostomy
presacral abscess 2/1 - 3/27
FOLFOX began 4/5 - 6/15
another presacral abscess 6/30-8/10
Reversal 9/11
10/15 fistula with drain

robinkaye
Posts: 374
Joined: Fri Nov 11, 2011 10:03 am

Re: Britanny Maynard

Postby robinkaye » Thu Nov 06, 2014 6:31 pm

Lisahopes wrote:The posters who judge this poor woman's choices and condemn her right are disgraceful. They claim that it a slippery slope for handicapped folks and then these very same critics say that these options and risks already exist. :shock: Makes no sense at all.


Lisa, I just read through all of the posts and can't find anyone judging Brittany. If I missed it please reference. Some are concerned with how we go about sanctioning euthanasia, it was not an attack on Brittany. Some people here say they wouldn't choose euthanasia but don't deny Brittany her right. There is a difference between questioning the implementation of a law and condemning Brittany or her right which no one did. The rights granted by "man" can be changed or taken away.
Husband has RC Stage IIIC
Chemorad 9/28-11/07
2 rounds FOLFOX to get rid of iliac LN
LAR Surgery 1/17 ileostomy
presacral abscess 2/1 - 3/27
FOLFOX began 4/5 - 6/15
another presacral abscess 6/30-8/10
Reversal 9/11
10/15 fistula with drain

jdepp
Posts: 488
Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2008 7:53 pm

Re: Britanny Maynard

Postby jdepp » Thu Nov 06, 2014 6:32 pm

robinkaye wrote: There is such thing as a slippery slope. Read this pertaining to the Netherlands: [url]
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3070710/[/url]


Anybody who reads the Pereira article suggested by Robinkaye should also read this: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22670091

Here is the abstract:

OBJECTIVE: To review the empirical claims made in: Pereira J. Legalizing euthanasia or assisted suicide: the illusion of safeguards and controls. Curr Oncol 2011;18:e38-45.
DESIGN: We collected all of the empirical claims made by Jose Pereira in "Legalizing euthanasia or assisted suicide: the illusion of safeguards and controls." We then collected all reference sources provided for those claims. We compared the claims with the sources (where sources were provided) and evaluated the level of support, if any, the sources provide for the claims. We also reviewed other available literature to assess the veracity of the empirical claims made in the paper. We then wrote the present paper using examples from the review.
RESULTS: Pereira makes a number of factual statements without providing any sources. Pereira also makes a number of factual statements with sources, where the sources do not, in fact, provide support for the statements he made. Pereira also makes a number of false statements about the law and practice in jurisdictions that have legalized euthanasia or assisted suicide.
CONCLUSIONS: Pereira's conclusions are not supported by the evidence he provided. His paper should not be given any credence in the public policy debate about the legal status of assisted suicide and euthanasia in Canada and around the world.
Colon dx 08 @ 41 Poorly diff. 12+ liver mets, 19/28 LN
Colon rsx /14 x Folfox-Erbitux 08-09
PVE / Liver rsx 09
Lung & LN mets 10
Folfiri, Xeloda, Avastin 10-13
Xelox, Erbitux, UFUR, TS-1, Oxi, Lonsurf 14-16
Stivarga & TIL trial 16
Brain lesion, RO688 trial 18

Laurettas
Posts: 1606
Joined: Tue Jun 21, 2011 9:49 pm

Re: Britanny Maynard

Postby Laurettas » Thu Nov 06, 2014 7:12 pm

There are so many levels at which this whole conversation distresses me. Let's start with the name of Oregon's law: Death with Dignity. Implicit in that name is that those who die a natural death, especially in the cases in which the person suffers disability or pain in the process of dying have lost their dignity. I could not more strongly disagree with something than that idea. It is abhorrent to me.

Another is that those who object to someone taking their own life to avoid suffering or lifestyle limitations are not compassionate people. That is a very cruel connection to make about someone and one I personally resent greatly. And, I think if a random person were to read this thread it would be quite clear that those being the most uncharitable are not the ones holding to this position.

I also don't think that people understand at all what these kinds of conversations sound like to the handicapped. Many of those choosing to die are avoiding that which the handicapped are experiencing every day of their lives. Just think for a minute about how you would feel if someone told you that they would rather die than be like you.

And, CRGuy, my uncle exercised his right to suicide because he didn't want to deal with his disease--and he destroyed the last 15 years of my aunt's life. I cannot say this often enough---life is not always only about "You". Every decision like this that one makes is going to have some impact on others--either directly as in the case of my aunt or on society as a whole. And when something like the tragic case of Brittany is being exploited in the media, the impact is much greater. And, if she wanted her decision to be noticed in a public manner, then one need not feel remorse about discussing her decision in public.
DH 58 4/11 st 4 SRC CC
Lymph, peri, lung
4/11 colon res
5-10/11 FLFX, Av, FLFRI, Erb
11/11 5FU Erb
1/12 PET 2.4 Max act.
1/12 Erb
5/12 CT ext. new mets
5/12 Xlri
7/12 bad CT
8/12 5FU solo
8/12 brain met
9/12 stop tx
11/4/12 finished race,at peace

jdepp
Posts: 488
Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2008 7:53 pm

Re: Britanny Maynard

Postby jdepp » Thu Nov 06, 2014 7:46 pm

Laurettas wrote:Another is that those who object to someone taking their own life to avoid suffering or lifestyle limitations are not compassionate people. That is a very cruel connection to make about someone and one I personally resent greatly.


I think this may be the point where we disagree most profoundly. In my view you are trying to have it both ways. You want to protect the rights of people who wish to live out their lives as long as possible but you do not want to fight for the legal rights of people who wish to end their lives.

Correct me if I am wrong, but as I read your posts it seems to me that you do not see these groups as ethically equal. The group that is more valuable and privileged to you is the group that wishes to live as long as possible, no matter their level of suffering or their limitations, not the group that wishes to end their lives like Brittany Maynard. It seems that your compassion extends to one group more than another, so much so that you are willing to force people like Brittany to endure long, expensive, agonizing deaths. That is the only conclusion I can draw from your stated, repeated objections to "someone taking their own life to avoid suffering."

I am arguing that as a society we owe equal respect and dignity to both groups.
Colon dx 08 @ 41 Poorly diff. 12+ liver mets, 19/28 LN
Colon rsx /14 x Folfox-Erbitux 08-09
PVE / Liver rsx 09
Lung & LN mets 10
Folfiri, Xeloda, Avastin 10-13
Xelox, Erbitux, UFUR, TS-1, Oxi, Lonsurf 14-16
Stivarga & TIL trial 16
Brain lesion, RO688 trial 18

justin case
Posts: 4269
Joined: Sun Sep 04, 2011 8:26 am
Location: Katy, Texas

Re: Britanny Maynard

Postby justin case » Thu Nov 06, 2014 7:51 pm

Yup, in the 60s, one of my great uncles, took a bullet to the head, because of cancer pain. I was 5 years old, so no one explained much. I learned the word suicide at a young age. Last year, I heard his wife was tired of his BS, and cleaning up after him, and perhaps her fingerprints were on the weapon.
Either way, I don't think the life insurance paid off :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:
Michael
7/11 diagnosed Stage 2 colon and rectal cancer
chemo/rad
lar/temp ilio
Reversal & port removal
21 round of chemo Folfox 9tx, 5fu 12 tx
Last treatment July 2012

robinkaye
Posts: 374
Joined: Fri Nov 11, 2011 10:03 am

Re: Britanny Maynard

Postby robinkaye » Thu Nov 06, 2014 8:37 pm

I think Ezekial Emanuel's article "Whose Right to Choose" illustrates the argument from both sides very well. It's long but looks at myths, reality and offers solutions.

http://www.theatlantic.com/past/issues/97mar/emanuel/emanuel.htm
Husband has RC Stage IIIC
Chemorad 9/28-11/07
2 rounds FOLFOX to get rid of iliac LN
LAR Surgery 1/17 ileostomy
presacral abscess 2/1 - 3/27
FOLFOX began 4/5 - 6/15
another presacral abscess 6/30-8/10
Reversal 9/11
10/15 fistula with drain

andy21
Posts: 376
Joined: Tue Jun 26, 2012 4:07 pm
Location: N California

Re: Britanny Maynard

Postby andy21 » Thu Nov 06, 2014 8:40 pm

Please think of happy innocent old days! and smile!

Once again heart is trying to find those leisurely days and nights
just sitting and thinking dreaming of loved one
Relaxing, lying in the backyard, under the mild winter sunlight
by pulling shadow of your body on my eyes
at times lying face down, at others curled up on one's side

Once again heart is trying to find
Once again heart is trying to find those leisurely days and nights
in a breezing summer nights
Staying awake till late in night on the cool white sheets
Just lying on the terrace, gazing at the stars

Once again heart is trying to find those leisurely days and nights
in snowy winters on an imposing mountain
Listening to echoing silences of the valleys
living misty moments through the eyes

Once again heart is trying to find those leisurely days and nights
Once again heart is trying to find those
Caregiver: To 67 Yr father
diag. Stage IV, 5/12, liver mets
6 cycles Xelox/Avastin, Start 06/12
Stage 1 of Two Stage Resection Surgery in Dec, 12. 2nd line fails.
T Cell Trial May-Jul, 2013
Becomes a Heavenly Angel in August, 2013

jdepp
Posts: 488
Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2008 7:53 pm

Re: Britanny Maynard

Postby jdepp » Thu Nov 06, 2014 8:57 pm

robinkaye wrote:I think Ezekial Emanuel's article "Whose Right to Choose" illustrates the argument from both sides very well. It's long but looks at myths, reality and offers solutions.

[url]
http://www.theatlantic.com/past/issues/ ... manuel.htm[/url]


It is interesting to compare that 17-year-old piece by Emanuel with his latest one in the Atlantic from a few weeks ago. Now he is arguing this:

"...here is a simple truth that many of us seem to resist: living too long is also a loss. It renders many of us, if not disabled, then faltering and declining, a state that may not be worse than death but is nonetheless deprived. It robs us of our creativity and ability to contribute to work, society, the world. It transforms how people experience us, relate to us, and, most important, remember us. We are no longer remembered as vibrant and engaged but as feeble, ineffectual, even pathetic...

...I am talking about how long I want to live and the kind and amount of health care I will consent to after 75. Americans seem to be obsessed with exercising, doing mental puzzles, consuming various juice and protein concoctions, sticking to strict diets, and popping vitamins and supplements, all in a valiant effort to cheat death and prolong life as long as possible. This has become so pervasive that it now defines a cultural type: what I call the American immortal.

I reject this aspiration. I think this manic desperation to endlessly extend life is misguided and potentially destructive. For many reasons, 75 is a pretty good age to aim to stop."

If you like this sort of thing, you can read all of Ezekiel Emanuel's article here:

http://www.theatlantic.com/features/arc ... 75/379329/
Colon dx 08 @ 41 Poorly diff. 12+ liver mets, 19/28 LN
Colon rsx /14 x Folfox-Erbitux 08-09
PVE / Liver rsx 09
Lung & LN mets 10
Folfiri, Xeloda, Avastin 10-13
Xelox, Erbitux, UFUR, TS-1, Oxi, Lonsurf 14-16
Stivarga & TIL trial 16
Brain lesion, RO688 trial 18

canadiandaughter
Posts: 676
Joined: Sun Aug 17, 2014 11:19 am

Re: Britanny Maynard

Postby canadiandaughter » Thu Nov 06, 2014 9:52 pm

Laurettas, I feel terrible for your aunt and how her husbands suicide affected her, but I can't help but wonder if he had been able to make a choice as Brittany did and have the family involved in his decision things might have been different for her. I have seen 2 people die, and watching them suffer needlessly has effected me as well. I personally feel that when there is no hope left and all that remains is suffering, a person should be given the right to choose.
DD to 81 year old father
dx 24/07/14 iv cc mets liver/lung
folifiri started 19/07/14
shrinkage of all mets
growth in the liver,started folfox/avastin 80% 13/01/16
reduced to 70% due to side effects 27/01/16
First scan on folfox shows shrinkage in lungs, but liver just stable
6 rounds of vectibix-fail. 3cm growth and new spots showing Waiting for panel recommendations
At peace January 8, 2017

robinkaye
Posts: 374
Joined: Fri Nov 11, 2011 10:03 am

Re: Britanny Maynard

Postby robinkaye » Thu Nov 06, 2014 10:19 pm

Did you read the 'old' article, Emanuel does not deny anyone the right to die. In his recent article Emanuel discusses what he wants for himself. He is not advocating for government intervention. Actually, he said that he wouldn't resort to euthanasia, just would not accept treatment. The articles were consistent, he did not have a change of heart.

Curious about the comment, "if you like this sort of thing"...what sort of thing?

As to the article being 17 years old...so, should we get rid of all books and writings from the past. Do they no longer have relevance. Emanual offered an historic perspective, his opinions and a solution to allow us to have it both ways without statutes governing us. I also find his current stance a bit crazy, would like to see how he feels when he's 74. However he did stick to his principles which haven't changed from 17 years ago.

I don't agree with BB that this is political, it affects us all. Before we do an either or there should be debate about what's best for society, we should take a look at how euthanasia/right to die has worked in the past and in other places. Once we go down this path there won't be any turning back. I'm not even sure which side I would choose when all is said and done.

I always thought we treated our animals better than people putting them out of their misery. Then last summer I lost two dogs to cancer, I took care of them for a long time until the suffering got to the point there were no more good days. When I took them to be put to sleep I knew it was right...so, why can I still not shake the feeling that I killed my dogs.
Husband has RC Stage IIIC
Chemorad 9/28-11/07
2 rounds FOLFOX to get rid of iliac LN
LAR Surgery 1/17 ileostomy
presacral abscess 2/1 - 3/27
FOLFOX began 4/5 - 6/15
another presacral abscess 6/30-8/10
Reversal 9/11
10/15 fistula with drain

jdepp
Posts: 488
Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2008 7:53 pm

Re: Britanny Maynard

Postby jdepp » Thu Nov 06, 2014 11:14 pm

robinkaye wrote:Curious about the comment, "if you like this sort of thing"...what sort of thing?


His dismissive portrayal of Americans as "obsessed" with "cheating death," as "manic" and desperately trying to "endlessly extend life." His selection of the age of 75 as "a good time to stop." Anybody who worries about pressure being placed on the elderly and the vulnerable in society must be alarmed by this attitude.

robinkaye wrote:As to the article being 17 years old...so, should we get rid of all books and writings from the past. Do they no longer have relevance.


No, the point is that his article appeared in March of 1997 and the Oregon Death with Dignity Act went into effect in October of 1997. His piece is uninformed by 17 years of relevant data.
Colon dx 08 @ 41 Poorly diff. 12+ liver mets, 19/28 LN
Colon rsx /14 x Folfox-Erbitux 08-09
PVE / Liver rsx 09
Lung & LN mets 10
Folfiri, Xeloda, Avastin 10-13
Xelox, Erbitux, UFUR, TS-1, Oxi, Lonsurf 14-16
Stivarga & TIL trial 16
Brain lesion, RO688 trial 18

Laurettas
Posts: 1606
Joined: Tue Jun 21, 2011 9:49 pm

Re: Britanny Maynard

Postby Laurettas » Thu Nov 06, 2014 11:17 pm

Excellent articles, RobinKaye and jdepp. The author has much common sense and is interestingly, Rahm Emanuel's brother. Bet they have interesting discussions!

I agree with pretty much everything that the author said in both articles. At 59, I have already adopted much of his attitude of the second article. Due to my life circumstance of having no one dependent upon me for their well-being, I see no reason to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars for some medical procedure for me. But, that is my view on life and I certainly respect those who think otherwise.

There were many interesting things he said in the first article. This comment put me in a quandary:

However, the one study we have -- the Boston study mentioned previously -- shows that for every cancer patient who is likely to be reassured by a discussion of physician-assisted suicide or euthanasia, another patient finds that such a discussion would decrease his or her trust in the care being provided.


So, whose right prevails? The one who wants assisted suicide or the one who will be afraid for his life because of it? And this is only cancer patients. If one adds in the disabled and the elderly, I would think that the ones who would fear assisted suicide would much outweigh those wanting it. This would seem to be pretty obvious in Oregon since only two-tenths of one percent of those who die in that state choose assisted suicide. Whose right is more important? Fear of being coerced into dying or even being euthanized can be very terrifying. How can we determine whose fear doesn't matter?
DH 58 4/11 st 4 SRC CC
Lymph, peri, lung
4/11 colon res
5-10/11 FLFX, Av, FLFRI, Erb
11/11 5FU Erb
1/12 PET 2.4 Max act.
1/12 Erb
5/12 CT ext. new mets
5/12 Xlri
7/12 bad CT
8/12 5FU solo
8/12 brain met
9/12 stop tx
11/4/12 finished race,at peace


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