Discussions about Death

[KWT]

One thing is certain. It comes for us all.

[Frenchie's Wife]

GOD is dead ........Frenchie

Frenchie is dead ....... GOD

[vickitwo]

So I am going to ramble a bit. Included is an account of my husbands last days and death.

This past Thanksgiving, one of my husband's brothers , his two sisters (from out of state) and all of 5 our children spent the holiday together. It was a very special time and I can't remember a better Thanksgiving. Very shortly afterwards my DH's health started to rapidly decline.During that visit my BIL was discussing a book which he was studing called "A Course In Miracles". Supposedly it is the words of Jesus as transcribed by a Psycology Professor from the Columbia University's College of Physicians and Surgeons in New York City. She is now deceased. I was fascinated with what he was telling me about the course.

Dennis had a liver biopsy on Dec 6th to see if he would qualify for an anti PD L1 clinical trial.

By Dec 9th, (I think) he went to see the pulmonologist due to increasing respiratory distress. The pulmonologist did a chest x ray and some pulmonary function tests. He painted a grim picture. Dennis' lungs were severly compromised by the many pulmonary metastasis. He suggested we consult Hospice which we did. That evening, someone came to our home to set up oxygen and Dennis was given sublingual liquid morphine. Dennis was no longer able to climb the stairs to our bedroom and he began to sleep in a reclinder downstairs and I on the couch. I was so greatful for the oxygen and the morphine. It was the right time for it and made such a difference.

On Dec 12th, we had an appt to see the clinical trial doctor and decided to keep the appt. The doctor was surprised at the rapid decline in Dennis' condition. The results of the liver biopsy were still pending. After a phone consult with Dennis' regular oncologist it was decided that since the Folfiri chemo regime (which had been on hold for 3 weeks) had started to fail, he would go back on Folfox for a few rounds while awaiting the biopsy results. He had gotten Folfox X 9 rounds back when he was first diagnosed,( from Jan 2012 to May 2012). It caused the most shrinkage of the tumors but was dced due to increasing neuropathy. We cancelled Hospice and he got a round of Folfox on the 15th of Dec.

It had become a tradition over the past several years that we and two other families had dinner and spent Christmas Eve evening together. We are all friends and so are our children. One of the families was that of Dennis' oncologist and it was held at his home. Dennis suggested that a local radiologist and his family be invited also, he had been so nice to us at the hospital and his daughter and one of our daughters are good friends. Although Dennis had not been doing well, that day was a little better and he was very much looking forward to the evening. Dennis always enjoyed making people laugh and that night he was in rare form. (Morphine?) It was a large crowd and we all had such a good time that night. We laughed and enjoyed each other so very much. The next day, Christmas turned out to be not so good for Dennis.

Dennis was scheduled for the 2nd round of Folfox on Friday Dec 27th. By this time he was barely able to get up. I had gotten him a wheel chair just the day before. I was extremely doubtful that he would be getting chemo that day. When the labs came back we were told that they were OK and he would be getting the chemo. I needed to go to the post office to mail his medical insurance premium (long story.... involved with trying unsuccessfully for hours and hours, days and days to sign up on the ACA Health Exchange), so I asked my 22 year old daughter to come and sit with her Dad while I did this. When I returned, they had just started Dennis' chemotherapy about 15 min earlier and he had just gotten back in bed from going to the bathroom. My daughter said that the two of them had been watching a movie and had been discussing it. As soon as I walked in the room, Dennis sat up and coughed some. He said "I can't breath". Before I could react he said it again, turned blue and fell back onto the bed. By this time the nurse came into the room and called a code.This was not something Dennis ever wanted but he did not have an advanced directive and it happened so fast. My daughter was hysterical. I took her into a lounge and the two of us held on to one another while we could hear the hospital alarms going off. Later, Dennis was taken to the ICU and was on a respirator. Was it just a coincidence that Dennis was scheduled for chemo that day and that this did not happen when my daughter was alone with her Dad.... I am so greatful this did not happen at home and also that I was there to comfort my daughter.

I called my husbands siblings and they made arrangements to come. All of my children were at home due to the Christmas Holiday. Dennis spent that night on the ventilator in ICU. I did not know if he would ever wake up and if we would ever speak to him again. The pulmonologist said he though that Dennis quit breathing due to an infection. Who knows. The next morning they began to wean him from the ventilator and eventually transported him to Hospice House.

Dennis became more lucid at Hospice House. He was disoriented to where he was and did not remember anything from the hospital. He was shocked when I told him what had happened. Later he would tell me that he did not see a light or go thru a tunnel or anything like that. That evening with our family all together and his siblings arriving was another very memorable time. Dennis was very witty and we laughed so much. I could tell that he was enjoying himself. It was so special. The next day, Dennis looked the best he had in a while. His appetite was good. He had many visitors that day. He continued to be somewhat disoriented to where he was (thought we were at a hotel), so we were able to give him a wheelchair tour of the beautiful Hospice House. It was another day that I will always remember and cherish.

After that day he began to decline. He spent a total of 1 week at Hospice House. I spent the whole time there with him. One morning as I was getting dressed for the day and about to blow dry my hair he called me to the bedside. He announced that he had just had an "Epiphany". He told me that "two black guys were sitting by his bed. One of them reached over and took his hand." That was all there was to it, he did not elaborate any further. At one point my 22 year daughter told me that Dennis was looking at the ceiling and said I am dying J ???.(she could only understand that the name started with a J) Dennis had a best friend who drowned while the two of them were working on an off shore job. His name was Jim. Dennis' brother's name is Joe. I don't know if he was in the room at the time.

By Wed. evening Dennis became very agitated during the night. The morphine and other drugs were losing their effectiveness. My oldest daughter was spending the night with us. It is a heartwrenching memory that two of us will always share. I am so very greatful for Hospice House, I am not sure that we could have handled that at home. Early that next morning Dennis was put on a continuous subcutaneous infusion of Versed. After that he was unresponsive. He seemed comfortable and free of pain and distress. We played his favorite music softly for him. One of which was a version of "Somewhere Over the Rainbow" (sorry I can't remember the singer but he is from Hawaii) My son brought over some of our family videos and we played those. One night my oldest daughter sang the song "For Good" from the Broadway play "Wicked" for her Dad. It was so beautiful that later I asked her if she might sing it at his funeral. (She and her sister sang it as a duet,it was beautiful) One of the Hospice Nurses had promised that she would sing a hymn for Dennis but as the days passed it was never the right time. About two hours before he died, she must have known the end was near and came in and sang "Be Thou My Vision" I had been reading the book "Catcher In The Rye" on and off since about October. I had taken that book to the hospital with me on Dec. 27th., so I had it at Hospice House. I was reading it on Jan 4th and was on the very last page when I looked over at Dennis and noticed his respirations were very shallow. I went to his bedside. The kids were in the kitchen area eating and noticed me and joined me at his bedside. By that time the hospice nurse entered the room. Dennis took only a few more breaths and slipped away at 7:51 pm. January 7th would have been our 25th wedding anniversary. January 9th was his funeral and the two year anniversary of the day he found out he had colon cancer. His funeral was the perfect tribute to him. If there is a heaven, I feel that he is there. He was a good man.

The people in my community were very kind during this time. One of my friends who I will call Lisa made a point to check on me often. Once a week we would go out for coffee or lunch. Her family was at the Christmas Eve dinner.
We got into some deep discussions about religion, the meaning of life, what happens when you die etc. I was excited to have someone who I could openly discuss this topic with. When my BIL came while Dennis was at Hospice he gave me two books. One was "A Course In Miracles" and the other was "Return To the Heart Of God" by Robert Perry which is based on ACIM. Sort of a simplification. Anyway, I had been telling her about these books. She had randomly found a book on her sister's Kindle that she had been reading called "Journey of Souls " by Michael Newton. It is about people who have recounted past lives under hypnosis. She was very excited about this book. It all seemed to make sense to her. We had some long conversations about all of this. She even told me that she had told her 24 year old son about the book "Journey Of Souls" as she thought it would interest him. (he also was at the Christmas Eve dinner) One Friday in March while having lunch she told me that she was going to visit her sister (in another state) the next week as she was having surgery. From there, she was going to visit her 24 year olds son who was also living in another state. I found out the next day, that her 24 year son had been critically injured in a motorcycle accident and was on life support. He eventually was taken off of life support and became an organ donor to several recipients. It comforts Lisa that others can benefit from her son's organs.

I don't know if this means anything but I just find it all so ironic, the fact that Lisa had been comforting me in my grief, the nature of our conversations, the fact that she shared this book with her son before his death, the fact that two people that shared that Christmas Eve gathering with us are now gone, how our lives are so intertwined.

Anyway, this is a topic that I often ponder. It can drive me crazy. I want to know the truth. There is so much about the whole religion thing that just does not ring true for me. If there is a God, why does he have to be such a mystery. I fear dying but I don't fear death itself. I would like to think that after death I will be united in paradise with my dear Dennis and all of the departed that I have loved. If there is no life after death then I'll just return to dust and that will be that. I always am sad though for the people left behind.

Yada, yada, yada....enough rambling.......good night!

[big mike]

There are know right or wrong answers to that age old question of is there a God and is there Heaven . I was a decades long alcoholic and drug addict and my spiritual awakening was an amazing experience and I've been sober for 40 months and it's a great feeling. Being spiritually saved led me to read the bible and that is an amazing journey in itself. The bible simply put says live a good life don't do onto others as you would not want them to do to you. Easy follow the Ten Commandments and ask yourself would I want theses things done to me,in case your wondering the answer is NO I don't want people stealing from me , sleeping with my spouse murdering me and no there are not multiple gods and Sunday I will rest and so on. My grandfather to whom I loved very much was a WW2 POW and a great proud Italian man who I looked up to and believed everything he said. This was his take on life ,death and God
There is a big book the day your born they write the date and time ,place
The next line is the time ,date and placed you will die and there ain't no way to change anything they wrote. Of course I never got the who they are out of him but you all get the gist.
Have a great day and remember keep on " fighting the fight"
Stay strong
Mike

[KWT]

I don't think it's as simple as following the Ten Commandments to get into this gated community. You may even have to be a republican.

The whole worship me or else thing really rubs me the wrong way. I don't think one should have to spend eternity in hell for not believing in something that is so hard to believe. Why all the secrecy? Just c'mon down and bust out a few miracles in public ya know like you used to. kind of like a refresher course. Heck it's been a couple thousand years

Again I mean no offense to my friends here who are believers

[jgall]

DBF-I think Chris will message you in Facebook, they hold a death cafe at our church and I know you were thinking of starting there. He's been to the death cafe there a few times, maybe he'll write about it here...

As for the topic, I left the (Methodist) church of my upbringing decades ago. I have real issues with the concepts of God and heaven that Christianity teaches. I can't believe in a personal god that is watching, guiding, or influencing my life, or condemning people to hell. I could go into this this deeply, but I have a deep respect for the right of everyone to believe what they believe and do not wish to offend. Let's just say I've been incredibly fortunate to have been introduced to Unitarian Universalism many years ago.

Scientifically, however, physicists have uncovered much about atomic structure and the energy that binds us. I do believe there is an inter-connectedness of all life through our energies. And scientific law teaches us that energy never dies it just transforms. Is it really so impossible to believe that the energy that binds us couldn't persist after our physical bodies are gone?

I've had a couple of experiences in my life that have influenced and reinforced this concept. One that was so amazing was when we went to a public reading event by John Edward many years ago (pre-cancer, pre-Facebook). I was curious and thought it would be fun. There were 500 people in the room, we were way in the back, and yet I ended up being one of the few who got a reading. It was uncanny and surreal the specificity and personal nature of the things that came through. There is no way that he could have found out the things he said to me through any way, not even through my husband...they were too personal.

Anyway, in the end, none of us will know until that time of our death so I try to not dwell on it too much, but I keep hope alive in my heart that there is some essence of us that endures.

Thanks for the open and respectful nature of this conversation! It's awesome!

Namaste everyone,
Julia

[cjsho]

I have some ideas about what happens after death, but I believe that whole topic is currently unprovable. What rings true for me may not for someone else, and that's fine. For me the interesting part of talking death is what happens on this side of that line. I think the way most of us react to cancer is very close to how we react to our death. If we've read stories for years we've seen lots of reactions from denial to warrior. The attitude I've had, and at least for me it works pretty well, is acceptance. I know death comes for all of us at some point, and very probably before we wish. That's part of being human.

Acceptance is not giving up, but rather understanding the reality of my situation. My oncologist and I have a treatment plan we are executing, and the goal is to keep me as healthy as possible for as long as possible. If a cure does happen, it will be along that path of treatment (but it's very unlikely - but still possible if I must hold on to hope, which I don't). Acceptance allows me to live more each day, and I believe that is best no matter how many days I have. Fighting cancer is nowhere near a full time job for me. I deal with it when I need to, and forget it as much as practical when I don't.

There is a book I read a few months ago called Love and Death by Forrest Church. He, and his father Sen. Frank Church, died of cancer. I found his story / philosophy to be very inspirational, a more articulate view of what I'm feeling.
http://www.amazon.com/Love-Death-Journe ... 0807072974

If you are interested in talking about death, I've found an group called Death Cafe. They started in Europe abut have moved to North America. There are hundreds of groups across the US and more are starting. It's not about cancer, and most of the people are on the older side facing the unknown (as opposed to a 54 year old facing the unknown). There can be some interesting conversations.

Thanks for sharing your stories and feelings on the topic. It's been an interest of mine since my teen years.

[jeanette57]

what an interesting topic

I am deeply spiritual but not locked in by religion. The church - or house of peace- said we are spiritual beings having a human experience.

am I alone or are there other out here. I am not afraid of death but pain! I don't want the end to be painful-

[CRguy]

I am deeply spiritual but not locked in by religion. The church - or house of peace- said we are spiritual beings having a human experience.
am I alone or are there other out here. I am not afraid of death but pain! I don't want the end to be painful-

I am a spiritual being on a human Journey.
Human made "religion" just gets in the way for me ( and apparently those in every OTHER religious war over the past 2,000 years ! )

I have commented a few times here about the many times I " should have been dead already..."
I have been in pain and have dedicated my personal and professional life to preventing / reducing / eliminating it for myself and others.

Life IS what it is, and pain is a part of it.
Suffering from it is not necessarily a required part of life.

YMMV
Harmony
CRguy

[Lindaelizabeth]

Dear All,
Wanted to share my faith and hope in Jesus Christ with you. In John 3:16, the Bible says, "For God so loved the world, that He gave his only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life."
I believe in Jesus with all my heart. I've heard his voice and believe the Bible when it says I'm saved and a glorious future awaits me in heaven, not because of any good works I've done, but because Jesus paid the price for my sins on the cross.

Ephesians 2:8-9 "For by grace are you saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, not of works, so that no one may boast."

Romans 5:6-8 "For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. For one will hardly die for a righteous man, though perhaps for the good man someone would dare even to die. But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us."

Romans 10:9-10 "If you declare with your mouth 'Jesus as Lord,' and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation."

1 John 1:9 "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness."

John 14:6 "Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth and the life, no one comes to the Father but through Me."

Acts: 4:12 "And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved."

I have been blessed throughout my illness with much peace and hope. I have physically felt the prayers of people lifted up for me. I take comfort in God's promise that he will never leave me or forsake me. God doesn't want any of us here to be afraid:

Isaiah 41:10 "So do not fear, for I am with you; do not be dismayed for I am your God. I will strengthen you and help you; I will uphold you with my righteous right hand."

I used to be anxious about a lot of things but it all changed when I started putting this verse into practice:

Philippians 4:6-7 "Do not be anxious about anything, but in every situation, by prayer and petition, with thanksgiving, present your requests to God. And the peace of God, which transcends all understanding, will guard your hearts and minds in Christ Jesus."

Do you know that every single time I've been anxious and did what the verse said, I stopped worrying about the situation? I prayed and then usually about an hour later, it would dawn on me that my anxiety had gone away. God's word is true and reliable! God promises we'll find him when we seek him with all our hearts. May the Holy Spirit be with you, Love, Linda

[KWT]

I can achieve the same peaceful feeling with Ativan.

[curious56]

(((HUGS))), LInda -- you said it so much better than I ever could!!

Nice thread. I have been hesitant to post...........I know that religion, politics, and sports are often subjects for heated debate.

As the OP wanted to hear from a variety of people..............here are my beliefs:

I will go to Heaven when I die. (I've already "visited" once, after a medical procedure -- it was very beautiful and peaceful -- I was upset when I came back to this life.) Do I "deserve" to go to Heaven. NO!! God, through his son Jesus Christ, has forgiven my past, present, and future sins....................because I believe. God has given us freedom of choice -- to believe or not believe. If you believe in Him, you will live in Heaven for eternity. If you CHOOSE not to believe, you will spend eternity in H*ll. No condemnation (IMHO) -- just as we give our children choices............."Eat your supper and you get dessert.........don't eat and you will not get dessert." We are not condemning our children to be dessert-less. They have the choice.

Is believing in what you cannot see easy? No. I don't think it was meant to be easy. Things of great value are seldom easy to come by.

Why doesn't God still perform miracles? IMHO, he does.....we have to look (miracles of peace about what is likely to happen, miracles of kindness from friends or strangers just when needed, miracles of love for the unlovable........). Healing miracles may not happen often -- but, do we give doctors the credit when someone is healed and God the blame when someone is not?? IF God performed miracles all the time, believing would be easy -- and not "a choice". Belief is about having faith in something you cannot see and do not completely understand.

I am in awe of people who endure hardships without faith. I cannot fathom. I am weak and very flawed -- I NEED God to give me strength, comfort, peace, to remind me to love my neighbor as myself, and for so many other reasons.

BTW, the Old Testament was the old covenant with God. In the time of the Old Testament, people had to live "by the laws" (ten commandments and many, many others) to be found acceptable in God's eyes, and thus "earn" the right to go to Heaven. The New Testament is the new covenant. We cannot "earn" salvation. If we believe, we are GIVEN salvation because Jesus died on the cross for our sins.

Thanks for letting me post.

[KWT]

"If you CHOOSE not to believe, you will spend eternity in hell"

Not loving or forgiving. Time to put the snakes back in the cage guys

[Voxx66]

Yes the believe or go to Hell issue bothers me especially as I don't personally believe the Gospels contain many of the actual words of Jesus. That is an invention of the Church and an unfortunate one. I'm not going to get far into it here as I don't want to offend anyone but I am a big fan of The Five Gospels and the Jesus seminar. (Besides highlighting what some scholars believe to be his authentic words, the translations here are so much better. The Gospel authors did not all write in the same way) It is my belief - based on evidence - that much of what the Churches teach about Jesus is simply wrong. I do not like being told I will be eternally punished by going to hell for refusing to believe in concepts that Jesus himself likely never taught or believed in.

Ok fine - I'll provide a link for the lazy ha. Wiki is actually pretty fair here in explaining what the Seminar was about and includes the criticisms of it.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_Seminar

[KWT]

Well if I go to hell I know a lot of good people who will be there too, I don't look good in white anyhow