T3N0M0 and mets

[Kick'nAssCancer'sAss]

I am fairly new here and I have been reading alot of post that help me in my journey and what to expect based on what others have experienced. I don't want to sound ignorant but I have noticed a lot of posters are for example T3N0M0 (same as I was at dx stage IIA) and develope a met sometime after there treatments are all finished. What I am curious about is the fact I thought for cancer to spread one had to be node positive but it seems some are node neg and they still develope mets. Is this just sloppy diagnosis or not enough nodes are taken during surgery? I understand the standard is min 12 nodes need to be checked by pathology. I am kind of freaked out because i had a pCR which the surgeon and onc say is the best case scenario and basically I am cancer free. I would imagines I will be scanned and checked on a regular basis going forward.
i guess what I am trying to say is after cancer and even with a great prognosis are we ever really CANCER FREE?????

[Cb75]

Hi,

I think it really is a question of logistics. Most people with a stage ii diagnosis are fine in the long run. They really would have no need to turn to aboard like this after getting through the fist few years from diagnosis. Whereas, those few who do have a recurrence after being diagnosed at any stage are more likely to seek the support and infirmation they find here.

Cb

[Kick'nAssCancer'sAss]

Yes it makes sense
kinda like the old saying
"misery loves company"
I would agree that most people that have success move on and the COLON TALK forum
becomes a distant memory.I am hoping this for myself.
Although I see many on here with literally hundreds of post helping others and helping themselves and for those
this forum is a great help.
Glad it is here for us.

[kiwiinoz]

Mike
I don't think that this board is a fair representation of the cancer patients as inherently those that that use this board are generally a little more advanced.
I can think of three people that were "stage II" that are now "stage IV"
Eric (aka Brownbagger)
Voxx
Myself
That is only 3 out of say 200 active users, which is a very low percentage.
In my situation I have a skin condition call psoriasis (like eczema) and after using topical steriods I went on to a new biological agent that targets your T-Cells as an immune suppressant agent. My oncologist is adamant that this was the reason that my cancer metastasized as the T-Cells are what fight the cancer cells in your blood stream, and with no nodes positive the only way it could have spread would have been through my vascular system.
As a "healthy" stage II I would feel very happy in your situation that I had caught this at an early stage when it was still relatively easily treatable.
Kiwi

[chemo sabe]

Some stage II's have poorer survival rates than some stage III's. The reasons are unknown. Here is a link to the information: http://www.cancer.org/cancer/colonandre ... ival-rates

Also consider that a tumor sheds thousands of cells per day. Those loose cells are also shed with a suppressor attached and can come back to life anytime. This is why chemotherapy is given over a period of time.

[Kick'nAssCancer'sAss]

I would assume that many stage 2 are not given the option for aduvant chemo whereas it is considered part of ongoing treatment with stage 3's.
Just the thought of cancer cells floating around is a scary thought and that is the reason I am starting the chemo next week. with everything I have read up to date that even with a complete pathological response I hope this will be the final nail in the cancer coffin for me.
Just want to improve my odds someone told me the other day that everyone has cancer cells in their bodies it is just a matter of what triggers them to become malignant cancer cells.

[chrissyrice]

I am with you on the chemo options and better outcomes for Stage II and also that this board is visited by people that hesitate to post positive outcomes.

Sometimes, IMO, we don't always share good stuff because of others with such bad news and are going through so much.

It's not that we don't post support and hope when needed, but being NED and on annual scans changes the posting patterns on this board. I visit often but, do not post.

But, even if I don't share all the good news, I still come here almost everyday to read and offer hope and prayers.

I think there are others too, that I see will jump in when their experiences will help someone else.

Guessing a lot of our NED'ers do the same....

[kiwiinoz]

Mike
Tipping odds in your favour is quite a positive way to do things and you can consider, exercise (my favourtime pastime), dietary changes, some suppliments and the chemo you are looking at.
I personally think that the cheapest, easiest and best way to improve your odds and increase your health is exercise. A 30 min walk 5 times a week will tip the odds of a recurrence, which is what you are concerned about, 50% in your favour (based on studies of stage III patients)
Kiwi

[weisssoccermom]

First of all, you have to understand that cancer does spread by lymph nodes AND by the bloodstream. I have a friend who lurks here....originally dxd stage I, no positive lymph nodes and yet she now has lung mets. To this day there still are no known lymph nodes that light up on a PET or that are enlarged on a CT scan and there never have been.. Secondly, remember that the "N" aspect of the staging only applies to the lymph nodes that were taken out, or in the case of rectal cancer, the nodes that were clinically 'examined' prior to any neoadjuvant treatments. As my surgeon pointed out, one can never be 100% certain that there isn't another 'local' node that remained in the patient's body.....obviously the more you take, the better but....there is always that possibility that one remains outside of the specimen sample. In addition, remember that cancer cells can and do circulate around in a patient's body and unless there are enough cancer cells in any one specific node, nothing will show up on a PET or a CT scan. In other words, there might be a positive node in a patient's body but there's just not enough cancerous cells in that one place to be detected.
As for your final question....."are we ever really CANCER FREE?", well I guess I'm pretty darn close, or at least I would like to believe I am. In June, it will be 8 years since my diagnosis and, on April 20th, it will be 7 years since my excision surgery. That doesn't mean that I still don't think about cancer (admittedly though it is much less frequently) and that I'm not diligent about my scopes, etc.

[Kick'nAssCancer'sAss]

Kiwi for sure I believe that exercise and diet are so important. But saying that I was already extremely fit at diagnosis. i ride a bike thousands of km's a summer, play ice hockey and visit the gym 3-4 times a week. I don't drink, smoke or have any family history. Over the years I ate a lot of processed meats, bacon for breakfast daily and hundreds of ham subs over the last 20 years or so. seriously when i look back on my diet that had to be it too much processed meats loaded with chemicals and the known colon cancer causing nitrites. Anyways no more of any of that food going forward and exercise will be a priority as it always has been.
Funny I always thought having a Subway ham sub loaded with fresh veggies and a choc milk for lunch was always the healthy choice over burgers and fries.
Seems I was mistaken.

[kiwiinoz]

Hi Mike
Sounds all too familiar sadly. A lot of us have been fit, healthy, eaten good diets and we still get cancer.
I tend to keep doing what I have always done simply because it is my lifestyle, I like doing it, and I don't really enjoy any other lifestyle.
I am not fooling myself that it is a magic answer to stop getting, or a recurrence of cancer but it certainly does reduce risks so why not.
Kiwi

[Kick'nAssCancer'sAss]

kiwi
Yes anything to reduce the odds is something to look at. I too enjoy working out and not so much strength training but more cardio. Afterall the heart is THE most important muscle in the body. Saying that I was alean 192 lbs before surgery on a 6'4" frame with a healthy BMI. My problem is I have lost almost 20lbs and I am now 175 with this ileostomy and although I am itching to get back in the gym in a couple months I NEED TO GAIN WEIGHT. Any suggestions my appetite is great but I think this will be a struggle since I always have had a good metabolism. I have started walking and this weekend I am planning a mile plus walk a couple times. I live in the Toronto area and we have had a brutal winter which makes brisk walks tougher. Weather is starting to look more like spring so I shall get out a lot more.....hopefully.
Although I feel I need to gain weight wven at this current weigh my BMI is still in the healthy mid range. I feel to skinny.

[Kick'nAssCancer'sAss]

First of all, you have to understand that cancer does spread by lymph nodes AND by the bloodstream. I have a friend who lurks here....originally dxd stage I, no positive lymph nodes and yet she now has lung mets. To this day there still are no known lymph nodes that light up on a PET or that are enlarged on a CT scan and there never have been.. Secondly, remember that the "N" aspect of the staging only applies to the lymph nodes that were taken out, or in the case of rectal cancer, the nodes that were clinically 'examined' prior to any neoadjuvant treatments. As my surgeon pointed out, one can never be 100% certain that there isn't another 'local' node that remained in the patient's body.....obviously the more you take, the better but....there is always that possibility that one remains outside of the specimen sample. In addition, remember that cancer cells can and do circulate around in a patient's body and unless there are enough cancer cells in any one specific node, nothing will show up on a PET or a CT scan. In other words, there might be a positive node in a patient's body but there's just not enough cancerous cells in that one place to be detected.
As for your final question....."are we ever really CANCER FREE?", well I guess I'm pretty darn close, or at least I would like to believe I am. In June, it will be 8 years since my diagnosis and, on April 20th, it will be 7 years since my excision surgery. That doesn't mean that I still don't think about cancer (admittedly though it is much less frequently) and that I'm not diligent about my scopes, etc

Congrats on you 8 years CANCER FREE. I belive in my heart that someday if I get there also cancer will take a back seat in my thoughts also. My focus is just getting there. i know lots of people who have had cancer 10, 15, 20 years ago and it is just a distant memeory. People much older than myself and with all the advances in cancer treatments in the last decade, more and more cancer patients will lead long productive lives going forward. Exercise, diet and a positive attitude will all be factors in all our recoveries.

[Tbart]

"To this day there still are no known lymph nodes that light up on a PET or that are enlarged on a CT scan and there never have been."

Dont think I ever heard this before. I read many posts that show enlarged lymph nodes from metastatic colon cancer that have shown up on pet scans or ct scans. My ct results always list no enlarged lymph nodes. I must be misunderstanding this. Could someone clarify this for me. Thanks

[weisssoccermom]

In my friend's case, they suspect that her cancer metastasized via the vascular system and not the lymphatic system. Not all mets originated from the lymphatic system.