Scary (From my Lymphoma Board) re: Anti-Oxidants

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Bev G
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Scary (From my Lymphoma Board) re: Anti-Oxidants

Postby Bev G » Sat Jan 12, 2013 7:53 am

Hi all: I couldn't get the link, but this isn't too long, and is probably something we should all think about, anti-oxidant wise.


Antioxidants the Enemy in Cancer Tx, Nobel Winner Watson Says
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By Crystal Phend, Senior Staff Writer, MedPage Today
Published: January 08, 2013

Antioxidants may undermine metastatic cancer treatment and even contribute to its development, according to a hypothesis laid out by James D. Watson, PhD, who shared the 1962 Nobel Prize in Physiology or Medicine for the discovery of the double-helix structure of DNA.

Antioxidants neutralize DNA- and RNA-damaging reactive oxygen species that would otherwise trigger apoptosis, Watson explained in an article online in Open Biology.

Although that balance is helpful under normal conditions, the vast majority of cancer treatments -- radiotherapy, most chemotherapy, and some targeted therapies -- rely directly or indirectly on reactive oxygen species to block key steps in the cell cycle and thus kill cancer cells.

"Unless we can find ways of reducing antioxidant levels, late-stage cancer 10 years from now will be as incurable as it is today," Watson said in a statement, calling this among his most important work since the double helix discovery.

WenYong Chen, PhD, a cancer genetics researcher at City of Hope in Duarte, Calif., agreed.

"This describes a very important sea change about what we think about cancer therapy," he told MedPage Today, predicting it would fuel research over the next decade.

However, there's less immediate impact for clinical practice, commented Richard Schilsky, MD, of the University of Chicago Comprehensive Cancer Center and incoming chief medical officer of the American Society of Clinical Oncology.

"The one practical implication is that patients with cancer getting treatment with chemotherapy or radiation or some of the newer antiangiogenic agents probably should not be taking antioxidant therapies, like vitamins, and certainly not without discussion with their oncologist," he cautioned.

Supplements are popular among cancer patients but none have been proven to help, so it's reasonable to suggest holding off, Schilsky explained in an interview with MedPage Today.

On the other hand, patients don't need to avoid antioxidant-containing fruits and vegetables as part of a healthy diet, he noted.

"Blueberries best be eaten because they taste good, not because their consumption will lead to less cancer," agreed Watson, of Cold Spring Harbor Laboratory in Cold Spring Harbor, N.Y.

His paper also suggested that "the time has come to seriously ask whether antioxidant use much more likely causes than prevents cancer."

Clinical trials have shown no overall mortality or GI cancer prevention benefit to antioxidants beta-carotene, vitamin A, vitamin C, vitamin E, or selenium.

When it comes to established cancer, many epithelial cancers (carcinomas) and effectively all mesenchymal cancers (sarcomas) remain largely incurable, as progression can be delayed but not stopped once it reaches the metastatic stage with current strategies, Watson noted.

"We must focus much, much more on the wide range of metabolic and oxidative vulnerabilities that arise as consequences of the uncontrolled growth and proliferation capacities of cancer cells," he wrote.

Under his hypothesis, reactive oxygen species are what directly induce most apoptosis.

He cited experiments with the taxane chemotherapy drug paclitaxel (Taxol) showing that its effectiveness was higher against cell lines with lower antioxidant capacity and also pointed to a variety of genetic factors pointing to connections between reactive oxygen species and programmed cell death.

For example, apoptosis can be turned on by the p53 transcription factor, which boosts synthesis of genes that generate reactive oxygen species.

"The fact that cancer cells largely driven by RAS and Myc are among the most difficult to treat may thus often be due to their high levels of reactive oxygen species-destroying antioxidants," Watson wrote.

"The fact that late-stage cancers frequently have multiple copies of RAS and MYC oncogenes strongly hints that their general incurability more than occasionally arises from high antioxidant levels," he added.

Although no trials of antiantioxidant strategies have indicated more than a modest effect, there do appear to be some potential candidates.

The oxidative phosphorylation inhibitor 3-bromopyruvate has been shown in an animal model to kill hepatocellular carcinoma cells more than 10 times faster than the more resilient normal liver cells "and so has the capacity to truly cure, at least in rats, an otherwise highly incurable cancer," Watson noted.

Another target for drug development may be the bromodomain 4 proteins, which play essential roles in keeping up levels of the gene transcription activator Myc -- a key driver of many late-stage incurable cancers that controls how cells move through the life cycle toward apoptosis.

"Bromodomain 4 functioning is vital not only for fast-growing leukemias but also for many, if not most, dangerous lymphomas and myelomas," Watson wrote.

The diabetes drug metformin may also be promising in combination with chemotherapy to kill late-stage mesenchymal cancer stem cells, based on preclinical work.

"Most needed now are many new anti-Myc drugs beyond the exciting new bromodomain 4 inhibitors, such as JQ1, as well as multiple drugs that inhibit the antioxidative molecules that likely make, say, pancreatic cancer so incurable," Watson noted.

Watson provided no information on conflicts of interest.

Primary source: Open Biology
Source reference:
Watson J "Oxidants, antioxidants and the current incurability of metastatic cancers" Open Biol 2: 120144.
58 yo Type1 DM 48 years
12/09 Stage IV 2/22 nodes + liver met, colon resec
3 tx FOLFIRI, liver resec 4/10
9/10 6 mos off chemo, Neg PET&CTC CEA nl
2/11 finished total 10 rounds chemo

9/13 ^17th clean PET/CT NED for now

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PGLGreg
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Re: Scary (From my Lymphoma Board) re: Anti-Oxidants

Postby PGLGreg » Sat Jan 12, 2013 8:28 am

Greg
stage 2a rectal cancer 11/05 at age 63
LAR 12/05 with adjuvant radiation+5FU,leucovorin 1-2/06
NED for 12 years, cured

Bob_Weiss
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Re: Scary (From my Lymphoma Board) re: Anti-Oxidants

Postby Bob_Weiss » Sat Jan 12, 2013 8:33 am

A nutritionist who I saw during radiation treatment, prior to surgery, told me about an NCI study that is dealing with the issue of whether anti-oxidents during treatment may reduce the effectiveness of the treatment. She recommended avoiding anti-oxident supplements until after all treatment is completed (which I did). I have not heard anything as yet about the NCI results, so I guess that the study has not been completed.
Stage 3 R/C -1 node+ ( 7/09)
5 wks radiation, 2 wks chemo: 5FU (8-9/09)
Rectal surgery: tumor removal (11/09)
10 rounds Xeloda: 3000mg/daily 1 wk on/1 wk off (1/10-6/10)
Supplements: Aspirin, Calcium, Vit. D3
03/27/17: 7+ yrs. since surgery--still NED

SoConfused
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Re: Scary (From my Lymphoma Board) re: Anti-Oxidants

Postby SoConfused » Sat Jan 12, 2013 9:24 am

I read this article on Thursday and have to admit, it scared me to my core. Re-reading it again just now has scared me even more and has raised more than a few questions:

- as far as supplements go, what are some specific "antioxidants" to avoid? I take a daily multi vitamin - is this a cause for concern?
Stage IV CC

Laurettas
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Re: Scary (From my Lymphoma Board) re: Anti-Oxidants

Postby Laurettas » Sat Jan 12, 2013 9:27 am

This has been discussed on another thread also. Kinda scary. I remember reading years ago-- in some place like Reader's Digest that someone thought Vitamin C supplementation might cause colon cancer. Haven't been able to find anything about that in my Google research lately however. I always remembered that because my dad took Vitamin C from the time I was a child and he ended up with colon cancer. We have a lot to learn yet about what is healthy.
DH 58 4/11 st 4 SRC CC
Lymph, peri, lung
4/11 colon res
5-10/11 FLFX, Av, FLFRI, Erb
11/11 5FU Erb
1/12 PET 2.4 Max act.
1/12 Erb
5/12 CT ext. new mets
5/12 Xlri
7/12 bad CT
8/12 5FU solo
8/12 brain met
9/12 stop tx
11/4/12 finished race,at peace

SkiFletch
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Re: Scary (From my Lymphoma Board) re: Anti-Oxidants

Postby SkiFletch » Sat Jan 12, 2013 10:51 am

We have a lot to learn yet about what is healthy.


Sure do
11/13/09 5cm Stage IV 9/25 lymph nodes w/2cm peritoneal met at 29 YoA
12/15/09 LA right hemi-colectomy
6/16/10 Folfox FINISHED
8/10/10 Prophylactic HIPEC
10/9/10 got Married :D
Still NED and living life to the fullest

"Can any one of you by worrying add a single hour to your life."

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Re: Scary (From my Lymphoma Board) re: Anti-Oxidants

Postby PonyGirl » Sat Jan 12, 2013 12:08 pm

For my neo-adjuvant treatments, I was warned NOT to use any vitamins, supplements or antioxidants. I had been taking ginger for the nausea I had previous to treatment, plus other supplements. I was only allowed Vitamin D-3.
Even at my stay in the hospital for a TME I was doled out the Vitamin D-3 along with the other meds.

Yesterday when I picked up my Xeloda at the cancer clinic pharmacy I was told not to start any massive doses of Vitamin C or E or take "super" vitamins or ANY ginger, but I could take regular one-a-day vitamins and the Vitamin D-3 (up to 2000 IU per day).
July 9/12 - Colonoscopy - DX RC T3NXM0
July 24 & 30/12 - MRI, CT Scan
Aug.29-Oct.3/12 - 24 of 28 Chemo (Xeloda) & Rad treatments
Nov.20/12 - Sigmoidoscopy
Nov.28/12 - Lap. LAR surgery & Ileostomy, 0 of 6 nodes
Jan.11/13 - Chemo (Xeloda)

jean60
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Re: Scary (From my Lymphoma Board) re: Anti-Oxidants

Postby jean60 » Sat Jan 12, 2013 1:06 pm

I read this too and found it very sobering, as well as his outlook on cancer research/progress overall. We do indeed, as someone else said, have a great deal to learn.

Jean
Dx Rectal Cncr 5/12
Stage III
5 weeks Chemo (5FU) & Radiation completed
LAR with temporary ileostomy 9/12, complete response
Began FOLFOX 10/12. oxil reduced after tx 1, eliminated after tx 2. Now 5FU.
Finished 1/13
Ileostomy reversal 5/13

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dianetavegia
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Re: Scary (From my Lymphoma Board) re: Anti-Oxidants

Postby dianetavegia » Sat Jan 12, 2013 2:05 pm

My understanding is that this is DURING treatment or when someone has active cancer. Am I reading it wrong?

I was told no supplements during chemo, too, but now take a daily vitamin (Centrum Silver Ultra for Women) as well as a calcium and Vit. D3. My onc approves.
Stage III cc surgery 1/7/09. 12 tx FOLFOX
Stage IV PET = 1.5cm liver met. HR 4/11/12

14 years since dx and 11 years post liver resection.
Pronounced CURED and discharged by onc

“O Lord my God, I cried out to You, And You healed me.” Psalms 30:2

nicola smith
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Re: Scary (From my Lymphoma Board) re: Anti-Oxidants

Postby nicola smith » Sat Jan 12, 2013 2:54 pm

Throughout chemo, I took Vitamin D, Calcium, B12, B6 and Glutamine. After chemo, I dropped the Glutamine and added low dose baby aspirin. My understanding is that vitamins A, C, and E are the strong antioxidants. The antioxidant properties, if any, of B6, B12, D calcium seem to be fairly low. It is my understanding that Glutamine (not to be confused with Glutathione) is not an antioxidant, but I could be wrong.
UC history
11/09: Dx, CEA 2.9
02/10: colectomy, temp ileo; pT3N1Mx
10/10: 12 Folfox6
03/11: jpouch
2010/11/12/13/14: 6 PET and/or CT's - NED
quarterly 03/2010- 03/2015: CEA range 0.8-1.3
03/2015: discharged to GP :D

some
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Re: Scary (From my Lymphoma Board) re: Anti-Oxidants

Postby some » Sat Jan 12, 2013 7:41 pm

Well golly. I have to say that this freaks me out a bit.

Can someone spell it out in laymen's terms? What to avoid? Is juicing ok? I have a friend that does chemo and juices just not on chemo/pump days. My husband isn't religious with juicing either way but would on occasion juice on chemo days. We are talking carrots apples spinach kale lemons etc. Are these still low levels compared to supplements?

What about odwalla drinks?

My husband supplemented with D, sublingual B6(?), cue cumin, turmeric and fish oils, so I don't think these fall under this and his onc never had any negative feedback on it. I wish there was some consistency.

Thanks for sharing Bec. Heard rumblings on this earlier this week but no clear instructions.

Serena
DH (age 41) diag Stage IV mets to peritoneum - July 2012 (undetectable on CT PET or MRI)
Folfox 7 & Avastin started July 2012 CEA, CA 19-9 not indicators
HIPEC surgery 1/18/13
Folfiri/Erbitux - March 2013
Lots of prayers.

Busymamaof3
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Re: Scary (From my Lymphoma Board) re: Anti-Oxidants

Postby Busymamaof3 » Sat Jan 12, 2013 9:48 pm

My oncologist has said no antioxidants (including green tea) from the beginning. Crazy because I used to drink green tea like crazy and take tons of vitamins trying to be healthy and perhaps was feeding this cancer. I do take supplements prescribed by a naturopath but none are antioxidants. It is a balancing act for sure between what will help and what can hurt. So far my CEA is falling consistently so my supplements and chemo are hopefully working together just fine.
Dx Stage IV CRC 8/12, 40yrs old
3 kids under 10
10/5/12 1 met to liver
folfox w/avastin 4 rds
Folfox alone 4 rds
HIPEC/CRS 2/13/13
PT3N1cM1
Back on Folfox 3/12 - 4/23/13
It is back 8/23/13
FOLFORI 9/13-1/14 cea up
Folfox 1/13
Hipec w crs #2 2/27/14

Nellie
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Re: Scary (From my Lymphoma Board) re: Anti-Oxidants

Postby Nellie » Sun Jan 13, 2013 11:06 am

Busymamaof3 wrote:My oncologist has said no antioxidants (including green tea).


Why no green tea? I drink it by the gallon (slight exaggeration!)
I wish there was some kind of info on what you should and shouldn't be doing - it's so flippin frustrating and confusing..... :|
Rt hemi.
5/12
Adenocarcinoma mod to poor diff. Poor diff accomp. by extensive necrosis
Mult. LN - pos.
Pt4a, pn2b
6/12 Ascites drain - Non malignant
12 rounds folfox completed Dec 2012
Ct scans looking good!
more of the same 1/9/13 folf without the ox.

Nellie
Posts: 128
Joined: Tue Aug 07, 2012 9:50 pm

Re: Scary (From my Lymphoma Board) re: Anti-Oxidants

Postby Nellie » Sun Jan 13, 2013 11:06 am

Busymamaof3 wrote:My oncologist has said no antioxidants (including green tea).


Why no green tea? I drink it by the gallon (slight exaggeration!)
I wish there was some kind of info on what you should and shouldn't be doing - it's so flippin frustrating and confusing..... :|
Rt hemi.
5/12
Adenocarcinoma mod to poor diff. Poor diff accomp. by extensive necrosis
Mult. LN - pos.
Pt4a, pn2b
6/12 Ascites drain - Non malignant
12 rounds folfox completed Dec 2012
Ct scans looking good!
more of the same 1/9/13 folf without the ox.

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Lara239
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Re: Scary (From my Lymphoma Board) re: Anti-Oxidants

Postby Lara239 » Sun Jan 13, 2013 11:31 am

I really like this arcticle from this scientist challenging the cancer researchers to come up with better solutions (the rest of the article mentions this)...it is about time we had a different approach. The anti-oxidants...it is very complex from what I have researched (not that I have all the answers but I have done tons of reading on this). According to our oncologist AND our Naturpath, whenever you isolate a particular vitamin like A,C,E out of it's natural form and take in high doses, the body does not know how to process this. Our oncologist gave good examples of this by saying lung cancer patients often have a deficiency in vitamin A but if they take start taking it it suddenly (in high doses), it will actually cause their cancer to grow in theory.
My husband's oncologist (who I really love because he is so progressive) feels that vitmamins should be taken in their most natural state (like eating veggies/fruit instead of taking high dose vitamins) because our body knows how to deal with it. Vegetables/Fruit/Herbs send out specific genetic codes to our DNA that an isolated vitamin/anti-toxidant cannot do. I think it is simple nature and we should just leave things alone (foods minimally processed for instance) and their most natural state. My oncologist said juicing/green tea and a simple multi-vitamin is great (except on infustion days because of the folic acid in the multi). I dont know if he is right or wrong about this but he has really good stats for an oncologist. I think it is good if we are always learning.
wife of DH (age 41) DX 8/3/2012 with 10 cm tumor in decending colon
pre-surgery CEA 4.4, no spread to other organs
8/22 - resection DX stage 3c 9/44 positive nodes
10/3/2012 CEA 1.3
Lynch test negative, tumor IS MSI-H
Folfox 10/3/2012 w/Yance protocol


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